Question for people who own both a Spencer AND a rifle in .50-70

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

For those of you who own an original Spencer in 56-50 caliber, you know how the brass made by Starline is for use in the modern reproductions and won't fit in the originals.  You have to use brass made from cut down .50-70 brass.  If anyone out there has an original Spencer, and also has Trapdoor rifle or something else in 

.50-70, I have a question for you.

Can you still use the brass cut back for use in the Spencer, or is something other than just cutting back the length involved in the modifying the brass for Spencer use that makes it no longer usable in a .50-70?

[Black Angus McPherson]

H.K., 

 

I can't answer your question, but I have a question for you.   Why won't the brass made by Starline fit in an original .56-50 Spencer?

 

Angus

[Trailrider #896]

Never thought of doing that!  For .56-56, I'd cut the .50-70 cases back, then anneal the "Spencer" brass about half the remaining length, and reamed the neck for .535" bullets. For .56-50 you probably could use the shortened cases like when you shoot .44 Specials or Russians in a .44 Magnum.  How much chamber cleaning you'd need before shooting .50-70's I can't say.

Stay well and safe!

Merry Christmas!

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

16 minutes ago, Black Angus McPherson said:

H.K., 

 

I can't answer your question, but I have a question for you.   Why won't the brass made by Starline fit in an original .56-50 Spencer?

 

Angus

 

  As I recall, the reproduction Spencers and the brass for it has a slightly smaller rim than the originals did and the new brass won't be grabbed by the extractor in an original.  Also, since the rims in the originals is larger, it won't fit in the reproductions.

 

I learned all this when I got my original Spencer and I asked the people at Buffalo Arms, who had both kinds of brass in stock and I called to ask them what the difference was.

[Sedalia Dave]

Why not go over to the Spencer Shooting Society Forum and ask?

 

 

[Cypress Sam, SASS #10915]

I had an original Spencer and they are rimfire.  Entirely different case than the 50-70.

[Bailey Creek,5759]

There is someone can't remember who is making drop in blocks to change the original Spencers to centerfire.

Will have to look in some old magazines for the Manufacturer .

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

35 minutes ago, Bailey Creek,5759 said:

There is someone can't remember who is making drop in blocks to change the original Spencers to centerfire.

Will have to look in some old magazines for the Manufacturer .

 

An on-line search under "spencer conversion blocks" brought up at least 3 suppliers.

 

[Doc Coles SASS 1188]

I have a couple of original Spencer’s and a handful of 50-70s.  The blade extractor on the original Spencers is iffy with brass shells (they bit into the original soft copper shells a bit I understand) and rim diameter is critical.  The modern Spencer’s did away with the old blade extractor in favor of the Lane extractor, which was developed at the end of Spencer production.  It is a much more positive extractor.  To improve extraction on the original 56-50 I rebuilt, I bought an Italian lower block with the lane extractor from Taylor’s and installed it.  It took some work to do, but required only very minor and not visible modification to the gun and it works like a champ.  Much more positive extraction and more forgiving on rim diameter.  I shoot cut down 50-70 and starline cases with no issues.  You can see a write up I did on this project here:

 

https://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=25587.msg335524#msg335524

[Sedalia Dave]

Original Spencer’s used cartridges with a larger diameter all around than the current reproductions.  they were closer to 56-52 than 56-50. 

Most used a larger bullet as well. Repros usually need a .512 or .513 bullet. Originals use about a .520 or so. 

 The Repros are built to C.I.P specs. There are no SAAMI specs for 56-50 or 50-70. 
 

 

[Doc Coles SASS 1188]

Yes, there is a huge variation in bore and chamber diameter in the Spencer’s and the 50-70s.  If you look at the dimensions taken from original ammo included in Roy Marcot’s Spencer book, you will see there was also a huge variation in the dimensions of Spencer ammunition.  

 

[vidette]

The center fire breech block sold by S&S out of NY was a drop in replacement on my 1863 spencer. Shoots Buffalo arms 56-50 rounds just fine but the Extractor does have occasional issues and I keep an ice pick in my cartridge box for that. 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

 Mine is a 56-50 Model 1865  Burnside.  I has the blade extractor and I use the Buffalo Arms brass made from cut down .50-70  I run a .513" bullet and get good accuracy.

[Trailrider #896]

Just a couple of historical notes about the original Spencer Repeating Rifles and Carbines:  The nominal dimensions and the designations for the original Spencer rounds refers to the outside diameter of the cartridge case at the base, ahead of the rim, and at the mouth of the case.  Thus .56-.56 refers to the original round for the M1860 Army and Navy guns.  Groove diameter of the rifling in the M1860 Carbines that I have measured show the rifling is tapered, measuring about .545" just ahead of the chamber to .535" at the muzzle of the 22" long barrel.  I have never had the opportunity to measure groove diameters in the M1860 rifle.  The .56-.56 round used a heel bullet.

The .56-.50 and .56-.52 are similar cartridges.  The Army developed the .56-.50 cartridge for the Burnside-made and later Spencers. This used an inside-lubricated bullet.  Christopher Spencer didn't like the design, feeling the cartridge had too much crimp, so he designed a round with a slight bottleneck to the case, for commercial sales.  Other than the variations mentioned in Marcot's book, the bullet diameters were nominally the same, and the cartridges could be used interchangeably. 

Continued Merry Christmas and a Happy, Healthy and more Prosperous New Year.

Stay well and safe, Pards!