El CupAJoe Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 All, I've been thinking about getting a conical mold for my cap and ball revolvers and I have a few options, the cheapest is obviously the Lee 200 and 220 grain versions. I have an 1860 and 1858, both .44, both A.S.M. does anyone have experience with either of these molds in similar guns? I want to use them for paper cartridges, and possibly muzzleloader handgun whitetail season. Please advise if you have these and if they required modification to use in your 58 or 60. Also, how did they work for you? Regards, El CupAJoe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El CupAJoe Posted December 22, 2020 Author Share Posted December 22, 2020 I see good reviews of the Eras Gone and Kaido molds, anyone have experience with the Pedersoli molds? Are there others I should be aware of? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 I have a .454 235 grain hollow base mould for sale if you are interested. It utilizes a captive pin vice one you have to remove and reinsert. If you are interested send me a PM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El CupAJoe Posted December 22, 2020 Author Share Posted December 22, 2020 2 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said: I have a .454 235 grain hollow base mould for sale if you are interested. It utilizes a captive pin vice one you have to remove and reinsert. If you are interested send me a PM. thanks for the offer, for cap and ball, this looks like it'll take up too much chamber space and not fit under the loading lever. if it was a hollow point, now that could be fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 34 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said: I have a .454 235 grain hollow base mould for sale if you are interested. It utilizes a captive pin vice one you have to remove and reinsert. If you are interested send me a PM. Looks like it would make an excellent bullet for hunting. The hollow base would "give back" space. Probably best used with Ruger Old Army, Dragon or Walker. Hollow point would be, well, "pointless" at cap and ball velocities and considering how they would be rammed home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 Eras Gone gets a "Thumbs Up" from a Cap Gun friend in Texas. Likes em. He uses an "off the gun" cylinder loading stand though. I personally setting your guns up for an "off the Gun" cylinder loading stand. Works a Treat. Any conical you select is going to "take up" chamber space. I don't personally see that as an issue. With 3F your going to get all the velocity you can use. Cap Guns are not going to approximate Suppository performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329 Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 Dick Dastardly at http://www.biglube.com/ sells the molds for the El Paso Pete Ultimate Gamer (EPP-UG) bullets for cap-n-ball revolvers. They emulate a round ball, have a huge lube groove, and simplify your cap gun loading. Michigan State Frontiersman champ Mike Fink uses them exclusively in his ROAs. He casts them out of wheel weights. I usually buy these "as cast", lube and size mine to .4545 for a better fit in ROA cylinders Some folks load these backwards in their cap guns, and at CAS distances, it does not seem to matter much. (I have read this, but never tried it) I use them sometimes in my Pietta-Colt 44s, in 45 BP cartridges shot from my USFA revolvers (can be shot from a rifle), and in my 45 muzzleloaders. In fact, the 45 EPP-UG makes a dandy BP cartridge bullet, with its big lube groove, and 150 grain weight, especially paired with the Cowboy Special case. If I remember correctly, Coffinmaker uses 36 caliber EPP-UGs in his APP 38-55 loads for his handi Rifle in Plainsman. DD also makes a mold for 210 grain bullets for your ROAs. I have used Dick's bullets for years. I also use round balls. I buy most of my bullets from Springfield Slim. Eventually, I may start casting again, but I have done very little casting in the last 20 years. --Dawg Here is his description of the bullets: 45 EPP-UG In honor of El Paso Pete, here is the final result of his fine research. What Pete was attempting to do was emulate round ball performance in a true Big Lube™ bullet. His initial attempt was only partially successful. Here, at last, is the end product. Tests have indicated that this bullet works well in C&B revolvers as well as 45 Cal cartridge guns. When loaded in the great new brass design by Adirondack Jack, the Cowboy 45 Special, performance is superb. Chronograph tests with only 1.3cc of FFFg black powder yielded an 840 fps average with a Standard Deviation of only12 fps. Accuracy was so good that Adirondack Jack watched his supply of EPP-UG bullets go into one ragged hole. In the 45 Colt case it's possible to exceed SASS maximum velocity of 1000 fps with a full load of FFFg black powder. All the shooting tests done to date indicate very low recoil, very high accuracy and snappy velocity. In DDs Ruger Old Army™, the bullet shoots great from the original C&B cylinder and from the Kirst Konverter cylinder in 45 Colt or 45 Cowboy Special. EPP-UG bullets are lube/sized to .454 and placed five each in vials, ready to load at the next match. It's NOT a gamer bullet. It realistically emulates round ball performance in big bore guns while embracing the benefits of being a Big Lube™ design. Tests have shown that no additional lube, wads or cookies are needed for either C&B or cartridge loads. The huge lube grove effectively seals the chambers so cross fire from the cylinder face is not a problem. Please note that a flat metplat has been added for tube magazine rifles. 36 EPP-UG 36 Caliber mold. Bullets weigh 90 grains. Same six cavity platform as all the other Big Lube®LLC molds. The same handles fit. The size at the rebate is .352". The driving bands measure .382" and easily size to exact fit for a nice snug interference fit in your chambers. The small rebate sets the bullets square and proud on the chambers for straight and easy seating. This is another bullet design that works well with the DD Tower of Power cylinder loading stand. Since this is a true Big Lube®LLC bullet design, plenty of lube loaded into the generous lube grove assures all day shooting with no need to clean to maintain accuracy or function. This is a VERY accurate little bullet. 210 grain ROA Originally designed as a Cap and Ball bullet, this fine design has been found very useful in 45 caliber cartridges. The dual rebate makes loading in C&B guns very convenient. The lube/sized bullet sits straight and proud on the charged chamber for easy seating. The smaller rebate works well with Italian clone and other small size 44 cal C&B guns while the larger rebate works well with Ruger Old Armies.Since it's introduction this bullet has been shot with great satisfaction in 45 ACP 1911 Colt, Cowboy 45 Special, 45 Schofield, 45 Colt, 45-60 rifle and 45-70 rifles. The huge Big Lube®LLC lube grove supplies all the lube needed for even long barrel rifles. Accuracy and function thru long shot strings wihout need to clean is assured. The flat nose allows safe use in tube magazine rifles. Thank you Paladin UK for the flat nose modification!Dick Dastardly has also found this bullet very useful in his Thompson Center 45 Cal Seneca muzzle loading rifle.Although originally designed as a C&B bullet, this bullet offers great savings to the shooter that enjoys shooting a variety of 45 Caliber guns, both C&B and cartridge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 For cowboy action shooting, is there any advantage to conical bullets over round ball? Note, my only flask throws about 25 gr by volume. I use a 1/8 thick wad under ball to fill space in Pietta 1860 44. Last couple of loading, I submitted .7 cc of grits for felt wad. I have a bigger spot but I have to modify it a bit to get it to work on my flask. Would about 30 gr be about right without filler and round ball? PS. I've been shooting Grafs ffg, the new stuff made by Goex and I'm very impressed with how easy it is to clean up the guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329 Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 No advantage shooting conicals in CAS. RBs are more than adequate at our distances. I frequently shoot RBs at rifle targets when I shoot Josey Wales. --Dawg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 We have a good shooting buddy that all last season has been shooting Remington New Armys 44s with Eara Gone conical with paper cartridges. Has a press mounted on his cart to load cylinders. He says it's faster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 He’s not including the time it takes to make the cartridges. I can load both my guns in less time than it takes to make a couple of paper cartridges. The Dick Dastardly bullets look interesting ‘cause the lube gets loaded in the same step. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellgate #3302 L Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 The Remingtons readily accept the LEE conicals. One of my ASM 1860s, an "Hartford model" will accept the 200gr LEE conical with a bit of jiggling. Every other 1860 Army I've tried them in would not go due to not enough clearance under the barrel for the bullet to clear. I can't say whether the Ubertis have the room since I haven't had an Uberti Colt for many years. I never pull the cylinders to load my C&Bs as it is messy and time consuming. A nice "thumper" load is 30grs FFFg under the conical in a Remington. I used to load them back in the day when we occasionally had to put down heavy fallers with the pistol and a 36 Navy just couldn't cut it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 35 minutes ago, Hellgate #3302 L said: The Remingtons readily accept the LEE conicals. One of my ASM 1860s, an "Hartford model" will accept the 200gr LEE conical with a bit of jiggling. Every other 1860 Army I've tried them in would not go due to not enough clearance under the barrel for the bullet to clear. I can't say whether the Ubertis have the room since I haven't had an Uberti Colt for many years. I never pull the cylinders to load my C&Bs as it is messy and time consuming. A nice "thumper" load is 30grs FFFg under the conical in a Remington. I used to load them back in the day when we occasionally had to put down heavy fallers with the pistol and a 36 Navy just couldn't cut it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 Dunno. I've found loading on a separate cylinder loading stand to be quick and easy. I don't understand the "messy." Haven't found it to be messy. I've also found no burning desire to make paper cartridges. I made some once. To me, just a time waister. Yes, stuffing a paper cartridge at the range is quicker than a loading stand. The wasted time is in making the paper cartridges to start with. Skull Numbing Boring. The CAVEAT: I primarily load APP. No Lubes, Greases, Waxes, Concoctions needed. Dump the powder, seat the ball and SHOOT. PLUS ONE for Prairie Dawg. Conicals are a waste of lead for CAS. Round Ball is more than accurate enough. I do load the EPP UG - 36 BIG LUBE though. Gives a much better KLANG on the steel than the Round Ball. For 45 Cartridges I load the BARNSTORMER. Superb. Have not had a need to try the EPP UG - 45. YMMV FORGOT: ALL my Main Match Cap Guns are SNUBBIES. No rammer assembly to use. The dick Dastardly tower of Power is Du-Rigger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 1 hour ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said: To me, just a time waister. I've dabbled with making paper cartridges a couple of times. But since my guns have short barrels, I load the cylinder with a press. But now that I have the 1860s with a long loading lever, I may give paper cartridges a try again. I'll just use round ball. As for a waste of time, sometimes I have a lot of time to waste. Tomorrow, for example high temperatures will be in the teens with high winds. I can set at the dining room table and fill some time making some paper cartridges. When weather improves, I can go out and test them. If it reduces my time to reload between stages at a match, it'll be time well waisted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329 Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 Pulling the cylinder to load my cap guns, whether they are colts, rugers, or remmies has more benefits than quick & easy loading. I wipe off the cylinder face, the forcing cone, arbor, and the water table. I can apply lube to the arbor or cylinder pin, if it's needed. I can load conicals too long to load while the cylinder is on the gun. My cylinder loader from Powder Inc gives me consistent loads. Needless to say, I'm happy with this method, and highly recommend it. To me, paper cartridges are not a very good use of my time, so I do not use them. If it works for you........Great! Each shooter should & will find the best way for him, which is the way it should be. Long live the Frontiersman category, & the folks with the creativity & enthusiasm to shoot it!!! --Dawg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329 Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 Oh.......and my off-topic addition....... Frontiersman GunFighter is the BEST CAS category goin' !!! Especially with Snubbies!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earl Brasse, SASS #3562 Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 I remember seeing an article somewhere that most replicas of Colt 1860's (and other models) were not made with enough clearance for conicals. The author had both an original & replica & just filed the replica until it would clear like the originals. I had a friend who did it to a pair of Uberti 1860's to run original style conicals. One added benefit was that afterwards loading roundballs was a cinch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted December 24, 2020 Share Posted December 24, 2020 PLUS ONE for Prairie Dawg (ALL you betcha) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted December 24, 2020 Share Posted December 24, 2020 On 12/22/2020 at 3:16 PM, Colorado Coffinmaker said: Cap Guns are not going to approximate Suppository performance. WHAT???!!! Say it ain't so! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted December 24, 2020 Share Posted December 24, 2020 Paper cartridge loading with automation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted December 24, 2020 Share Posted December 24, 2020 This guy is selling a kit. https://www.etsy.com/shop/GunsOfTheWest I'll just keep doing it the way I always have. Only takes 3 or 4 shooters to load both guns while watching the unloading table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted December 24, 2020 Share Posted December 24, 2020 Here is a much better deal on paper cartridge former tools. $1.24 from Harbour Freight pack of four funnels. Take the smallest one and trim the angle off the end. Form the paper cartridge shell. Turn over and place in loading block. Dump in powder and ball. One on right also has a felt wad. https://www.harborfreight.com/search?q=funnel set Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El CupAJoe Posted December 24, 2020 Author Share Posted December 24, 2020 18 hours ago, Warden Callaway said: I've dabbled with making paper cartridges a couple of times. But since my guns have short barrels, I load the cylinder with a press. But now that I have the 1860s with a long loading lever, I may give paper cartridges a try again. I'll just use round ball. As for a waste of time, sometimes I have a lot of time to waste. Tomorrow, for example high temperatures will be in the teens with high winds. I can set at the dining room table and fill some time making some paper cartridges. When weather improves, I can go out and test them. If it reduces my time to reload between stages at a match, it'll be time well waisted. With 3 little kids, I enjoy being able to participate in an aspect of shooting sports without having to leave the house. Reloading or making paper cartridges is one of my favorite things to do after a long day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted December 24, 2020 Share Posted December 24, 2020 OOPSIES!!! Sorry Griff. I should have included "for weight of Bullet and Velocity." As far as "performance" goes, ALL of my Cap Guns perform every bit as reliable as Suppository Guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted December 24, 2020 Share Posted December 24, 2020 7 hours ago, Warden Callaway said: Here is a much better deal on paper cartridge former tools. $1.24 from Harbour Freight pack of four funnels. Take the smallest one and trim the angle off the end. Form the paper cartridge shell. Turn over and place in loading block. Dump in powder and ball. One on right also has a felt wad. https://www.harborfreight.com/search?q=funnel set I just got my American Rifleman today and Harbor Freight ad has a coupon for the funnels for only .79 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cusz M. Dutch SASS Life 55326 Posted December 25, 2020 Share Posted December 25, 2020 Not exactly answering your question but a round ball and a full charge of H777 should more than meet your needs. I have shot two does and had complete penetration on the lung shot. Other one did brake the shoulder bone and stopped. Took another shot to put it down. Seem to me you maybe looking for an answer to a problem that does not need to be addressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted December 25, 2020 Share Posted December 25, 2020 10 minutes ago, Cusz M. Dutch SASS Life 55326 said: Not exactly answering your question but a round ball and a full charge of H777 should more than meet your needs. I have shot two does and had complete penetration on the lung shot. Other one did brake the shoulder bone and stopped. Took another shot to put it down. Seem to me you maybe looking for an answer to a problem that does not need to be addressed. Full charge in what gun? Caliber? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cusz M. Dutch SASS Life 55326 Posted December 26, 2020 Share Posted December 26, 2020 1860 but do not recall how much powder. Thinking maybe around 25??? Many years back on a doe mule deer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.