Slowhand Bob, 24229 Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 Wasn"t it called the Richards Conversion that was first offered for the American market by one of the Italian manufacturers, possibly ASM? As I understand it there were some pretty heavy QC problems with these that eventually lead to their demise. I had the chance to handle a couple or three of these through the years and their owners claimed that they always worked reasonably well when compared to actual cap and ball guns which these were actually converted from rather than what Uberti later offered. What was the problems that ASM could not get past by just examining what Colt had done 100 years before? I will admit that everyone I have examined did have one bad problem, the front sites were always filed to the barl to get them on target. If an enterprising outfit like Pietta were to take up the cause and get it right I would like to be first in line for a pair of .45s.The Uberti version is no where as svelte as the actual black powder frame conversions! Until then I do really like my Howell converted Pietta '60 Army Models so much that I think I will do a pair of Navies in .38. If anyone is shooting these with regular .38 boolets and just letting them rattle down the barl please let me know how thay do on SASS targets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goody, SASS #26190 Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 I've owned several of these, and still have probably a half dozen to 10 pistols made by ASM. The Richards, or whatever they called them, had no more issues than any of their others, whether they be C&B, conversions or SAA clones. Being among the first ones made the internals are a little soft, which led to earlier than normal wear. I also found that nearly all that I have owned except a pair of later Liberty 2's in 44 wcf, had very light triggers. All in all I enjoyed the reputation that the ASM's had/have since it led to most asking a lower price than I feel they were worth. This made them a very good bargain in my eyes. YMMV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770 Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 I have one that in .38 I retrofitted with a '51 gripframe. It is easily the most accurate pistol I've ever shot. It'll put six rounds in one hole if I do my part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene, SASS # 27489 Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 Bob, I have an Uberti '61 with a Kirst Konverter in it. The bore is unlined. I shot it in 4 or 5 matches before the hand spring broke and I haven't gotten around to fixing it, but for those matches I shot my regular .38 ammo and I had no misses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 This is a pair of American Frontier Firearms (AFF) 1861 Navy Richards conversions in .38 Special. The difference between Richards and Richards-Mason (RM) models is the gap between the ejector housing and the cylinder. Some sources claim that some of the base revolvers used by AFF were ASM percussion pieces. The cylinder of the top revolver was out-of-round and rubbing on the main frame near the bolt. I had it turned to true and re-blued which is why the engraving is gone. Also had Tru-Ivory one-piece grips fitted to them. They hit to POA with my ammo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 Sorry Bob Your probably never going to see a correct size Richards Conversion in .45 The cylinder is just too small for .45s, unless you go to a 5 Shot cylinder similar to Kirst Konverters of Howell conversions. The other problem I see, the current market is just too small to tool up for a completely new product. Although I never expected nor foresaw Pietta introducing a brand new Hammer Double 12Ga either. ASM had a myriad of problems during the time the Richards guns were introduced. By the way, the ASM guns were ALL built either on the 1851 frame or the 1861 Frame (Same frame actually) with different barrel assemblies. ASM then put an Army pattern grip assemble on their 1861 and called it an "1860" but it wasn't. It was only manufactured in either 38 Spl or 44 Colt. I own'd several. Quality of internal lock works and parts was abysmal and quality control was non-existent. My ASMs were 38s (I had 11 to keep 3 running) and will state my ASM 38s were the most accurate guns I have EVER owned. Bar NONE. I dearly wanted some guns from American Frontier Firearms and just as I got the money together . . . . Dodo. And yes. AFF started with ASM parts. Finished up as fine guns. I need to sneak up on PWB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 Top to bottom: AFF '51 Navy Richards/Mason .44 Colt (antiqued) ASM (Traditions) '51 Navy Richards/Mason .44 Colt Uberti (Cimarron) '72 Open Top .44 Colt (all 3 are 6-shooters) The only "issue" I experienced with the ASM was light primer strikes on the first stage of an Umpqua Regulators' "True Grit" match (4 revolvers/2 rifles/1 shotgun). Upon closer inspection, I noticed a tiny screw under the back of the hammer spur. Turned out that the portion of the hammer face that strikes the firing pin mounted in the adapter ring is adjustable/replaceable. A 3/4-turn brought it flush with the hammer face...problem solved! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770 Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 5 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said: The only "issue" I experienced with the ASM was light primer strikes on the first stage of an Umpqua Regulators' "True Grit" match (4 revolvers/2 rifles/1 shotgun). Upon closer inspection, I noticed a tiny screw under the back of the hammer spur. That screw is considered a "safety", kind of like the two position cylinder pin on a Uberti. Mine backed out and was boogered up by the gun's P.O. I eventually had it welded up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowhand Bob, 24229 Posted December 21, 2020 Author Share Posted December 21, 2020 Why do the conversion manufacturers do not include the raised site on the ring as it was done one the originals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 BECAUSE! Economics actually Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waimea Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 On 12/18/2020 at 1:45 AM, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said: Top to bottom: AFF '51 Navy Richards/Mason .44 Colt (antiqued) ASM (Traditions) '51 Navy Richards/Mason .44 Colt Uberti (Cimarron) '72 Open Top .44 Colt (all 3 are 6-shooters) The only "issue" I experienced with the ASM was light primer strikes on the first stage of an Umpqua Regulators' "True Grit" match (4 revolvers/2 rifles/1 shotgun). Upon closer inspection, I noticed a tiny screw under the back of the hammer spur. Turned out that the portion of the hammer face that strikes the firing pin mounted in the adapter ring is adjustable/replaceable. A 3/4-turn brought it flush with the hammer face...problem solved! PWB Is the top one stripped to bare metal? I have been pondering this look for a while for my RM '51s. This might push me over the edge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 17 minutes ago, Waimea said: PWB Is the top one stripped to bare metal? I have been pondering this look for a while for my RM '51s. This might push me over the edge. Yes. I'm not sure what process was used (some external parts also show very shallow pitting). The inside parts, including bore and chambers were not affected. It was in that condition when I bought it. Here's a photo with different lighting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waimea Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 21 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said: Yes. I'm not sure what process was used (some external parts also show very shallow pitting). The inside parts, including bore and chambers were not affected. It was in that condition when I bought it. Here's a photo with different lighting. I am just going to strip off the blue. I was thinking of another finish and I may if I see it rusting too quickly. Kind of have a salty flavor to our air here. Thanks for pushing me over the edge. Add it to the pile of projects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene, SASS # 27489 Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 The gray color of stripped blue will just be...gray. Let it get a little surface rust, in fact I've done a little on purpose. When you wipe it off and clean it the metal will be darker there. That and some steel wool, especially around holster wear places, and a few BP matches and it will start having some character. Or if you use vinegar to strip it you can keep some of the blue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeaconKC Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 Maybe try one of the lead remover cloths to rub the gun. Those have wrecked the blued finish of many guns over the years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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