Ozark Shark Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 12 hours ago, Snakebite said: So, can a Female/Woman/Lady sign up in ANY of the categories listed in either the left or right column? Yes, for any of them where their age and/or shooting or costume style makes them eligible. Page 5 of the Shooter's Handbook - "All SASS categories are open gender categories (there are no men’s categories). Base categories may be subdivided by gender to establish categories for women only." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozark Shark Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 12 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said: Someone asked me this question a couple months ago... Must a shooter register in a 'ladies' subdivision category in order to be eligible to with Top Cowgirl honors at championship level matches? The answer is No. Overall Cowboy and Overall Cowgirl awards ignore category and are based solely on gender. I've been involved with matches where we've had females in open categories who win their category and are the top shooter at the match. Logically, if just "Overall" was awarded with no other division (e.g. by gender), the female won it. But when gender was added, they were "Overall Cowgirl." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tequila Shooter Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 @PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L I just tried to PM you and got a reply that you can’t get any. Please PM me when you get a chance. Thanks, TS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakebite Posted December 18, 2020 Author Share Posted December 18, 2020 Ozark Shark, I agree that women can indeed choose to shoot in any category that their age allows them to qualify for. Saying that a woman can not shoot in the Elder Statesman category would in effect being saying that the Elder Statesman category is a "Man's" category, and there are NO Men's categories. I'm not so sure about winning the overall Lady shooter's position if you choose to not enter in a Ladies category. I don't think you should be able to have you cake and eat it too. If you want to compete for the top woman shooter position then you ought to compete in a woman's category. Snakebite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Shapiro Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 8 hours ago, Snakebite said: Just got back home. Ha... I could personally care less what anyone shoots. What brought this on was our entry form for the upcoming Fort Miller match. We have always had you select a category, then check a box... Boy's, Girls or Ladies. I was ask why there was no Men's box. I said that there are no Men's category so there is no reason for a Men's box. But if that is the case then how about Elder Stateman etc.... Well, if a woman can shoot in Senior because there are no Men's categories, or choose to shoot in Ladies Senior , then why doesn't it follow with the other age based categories? Those categories are Protected.... but that exemption is in reference to requiring them to have a minimum number of shooters. OK, a shooter can shoot in any category that they qualify for. Well for over 30 yrs woman have always qualified to shoot in the "Base" categories. Remember, there are no men's categories. I can find nothing in the rules that would restrict a woman from shooting in any of these categories. Bottom line.... should the entry form have a box marked Men's to go beside the boxes marked Boys, Girls and Ladies? Ah, I understand now. I suppose the answer should be no, as a man isn't eligible to shoot in a Ladies category. To be consistent, why have a box to check for Ladies, Boys, or Girls? The category selected should be sufficient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Equanimous Phil Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 5 minutes ago, Snakebite said: If you want to compete for the top woman shooter position then you ought to compete in a woman's category. What if there aren't engough participants in the category she wants to shoot, say Ladies GF for example? She could chose Ladies BW if her guns and outfit allow, or not shoot GF style, or shoot GF with the men, but couldn't compete for top woman shooter then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakebite Posted December 18, 2020 Author Share Posted December 18, 2020 2 minutes ago, Doc Shapiro said: Ah, I understand now. I suppose the answer should be no, as a man isn't eligible to shoot in a Ladies category. To be consistent, why have a box to check for Ladies, Boys, or Girls? The category selected should be sufficient. And you are correct, it could easily be changed to reflect that. If it just list "Junior", then it would need the Girl-Boy selection etc. I may just redo it. Tnx Doc. Hope to see you again sometime. Snakebite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakebite Posted December 18, 2020 Author Share Posted December 18, 2020 3 minutes ago, Equanimous Phil said: What if there aren't engough participants in the category she wants to shoot, say Ladies GF for example? She could chose Ladies BW if her guns and outfit allow, or not shoot GF style, or shoot GF with the men, but couldn't compete for top woman shooter then. Good point made.... if that were the case it certainly would not be her fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Attica Jack #23953 Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 SASS has gone to the mentality that everyone gets a trophy mode of thinking. There are already too many categories, why do we need men and women categories, it should just be gunfighter, duelist, modern, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El CupAJoe Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 18 hours ago, Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L said: in a way similar to US Air Force where all genders are referred to as Airmen persons of a gunsmoke persuasion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L Posted December 19, 2020 Share Posted December 19, 2020 To answer the question of why would they want to. Some times when there are restrictions on awards based on a minimum number of entries in a category and a female wants to shoot in her prefered category and there are not enough females shooting in her category to be eligable for an award she might then enter into the non female category. Generally that would probably be categories like GF, BW, Classic, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakebite Posted December 19, 2020 Author Share Posted December 19, 2020 1 hour ago, Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L said: To answer the question of why would they want to. Some times when there are restrictions on awards based on a minimum number of entries in a category and a female wants to shoot in her prefered category and there are not enough females shooting in her category to be eligable for an award she might then enter into the non female category. Generally that would probably be categories like GF, BW, Classic, etc. I do understand what you are saying and know for a fact that it happens. On a number of occasions I have had to move a LFCGF into the FCGF category because she was the only one entered. In my opinion that is the proper way to handle it since she was eligible for both categories and it was the closest to what she had signed up in. There are not any Non-Female categories that I am aware of other than Buckeroo and Jr Boys. I have not seen any verbiage in the Handbooks that would make a Female of the proper age, who is properly outfitted, from shooting in any category whether it had a Masculine name on it or not. The book says: There are no Men's categories and putting a Masculine name on the category does not change that fact. I have found no exceptions to that. That's just the way it is. I'm not upset about it. In a few days this thread will move to the back page and nobody will think about it anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L Posted December 19, 2020 Share Posted December 19, 2020 16 hours ago, Snakebite said: I do understand what you are saying and know for a fact that it happens. On a number of occasions I have had to move a LFCGF into the FCGF category because she was the only one entered. In my opinion that is the proper way to handle it since she was eligible for both categories and it was the closest to what she had signed up in. There are not any Non-Female categories that I am aware of other than Buckeroo and Jr Boys. I have not seen any verbiage in the Handbooks that would make a Female of the proper age, who is properly outfitted, from shooting in any category whether it had a Masculine name on it or not. The book says: There are no Men's categories and putting a Masculine name on the category does not change that fact. I have found no exceptions to that. That's just the way it is. I'm not upset about it. In a few days this thread will move to the back page and nobody will think about it anymore. Yes non female category was not the right term for sure. Move from the exclusive female category would have been a better statement. I do understand what you are saying my answer was more to PW's question on why would they want to move away from the exclusive female category. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted December 19, 2020 Share Posted December 19, 2020 On 12/17/2020 at 1:55 PM, Snakebite said: I'm aware that there are no "Men's" categories in SASS. It's been beat to death over the years. A Female/woman/Lady can shoot Senior or Ladies Senior, Silver Senior or Ladies Silver Senior, etc, etc. Can a Female/woman/Lady shoot Elder Statesman, Gran Petron, etc, etc? Seems right. When making out Entry forms for Annual match should it have as a selection. Men's____, Ladies____, Boy____ Girl____? If a Female/Woman/Lady selects Elder Statesman and selects Ladies____. What category is she shooting in? This whole thing is a mess since names have been attached to the Age Based categories. Snakebite You're looking at this in the most literal fashion... Quit it! Logically, since men made up all the category names... they're all male categories, with a few exceptions thrown in after those men got their wives' input! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rattlesnake Russ Posted December 20, 2020 Share Posted December 20, 2020 So where would a transgender person fall in this discussion? I personally know a trans-woman shooter that is being told she can't shoot in a ladies category even though they have changed their name and birth certificate... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted December 20, 2020 Share Posted December 20, 2020 6 minutes ago, Rattlesnake Russ said: So where would a transgender person fall in this discussion? I personally know a trans-woman shooter that is being told she can't shoot in a ladies category even though they have changed their name and birth certificate... Quote Age, gender, and residency are all to be confirmed/determined by the declaration on the individual’s state issued driver’s license or ID. SHB p.5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rattlesnake Russ Posted December 20, 2020 Share Posted December 20, 2020 1 minute ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said: SHB p.5 I did forget to mention that her drivers license does have a "F" on it and she has been told it doesn't matter, the club can do what they want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MizPete Posted December 20, 2020 Share Posted December 20, 2020 On 12/17/2020 at 6:42 PM, Tequila Shooter said: it does seem wrong that a woman has a choice that a man doesn’t. I know a real (former) multi-year champion who always shot with the men at a State or above match to give other women a chance at a title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tequila Shooter Posted December 20, 2020 Share Posted December 20, 2020 58 minutes ago, MizPete said: I know a real (former) multi-year champion who always shot with the men at a State or above match to give other women a chance at a title. I’m not sure I understand what you’re saying? I also said “And for anyone that thinks a woman can’t compete just look at the overall times, I’m always being beat by quite a few women that I shoot with, they’re always in the top 10, and usually in the top 5.” So are we saying the same thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 5 hours ago, A.J. McDraw, SASS #52088 said: It appears to me inconsistent with the family values of SASS which characterizes The game as in Old Wesr Style and in a historical context. You mean the actual historical "Old West" where women COMMONLY dressed (and lived) as men to find work, avoid sexual assault or simply survive? The last time I checked - we PLAY a game. We play with old and young, men and women, boys and girls, blacks and whites, asians and indians. And I fully accept EVERY person I play with as a fellow cowboy shooter - I call them by their chosen alias and I accept their method of playing the game IN THEIR chosen way. There are many people I shoot with that I don't know their real name, their occupation, their home situation or their marital status. If I don't need to know any of the above - then I certainly can do without discussing anyone's genitals. Call yourself a man or a woman - I don't care. I'll say "Howdy Cowboy" or "Good morning, Ma'am" and gladly posse with you. Life's too short to worry about things that don't affect me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 JMNSHO discussions of sexual orientation or identification do not belong on the SASS Wire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MizPete Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 On 12/20/2020 at 5:50 PM, Tequila Shooter said: So are we saying the same thing? Not exactly. Your comment was that it didn't seem fair women have a choice that men don't & I just wanted to point out there might be a good reason behind it, and to brag on my friend for being what I consider to be a true champion, giving up a sure win for a mere chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tequila Shooter Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 1 hour ago, MizPete said: Not exactly. Your comment was that it didn't seem fair women have a choice that men don't & I just wanted to point out there might be a good reason behind it, and to brag on my friend for being what I consider to be a true champion, giving up a sure win for a mere chance. I don’t blame you for bragging on your friend, I also have a female friend like that and I brag on her all the time, (she hates it when I do but I do it anyway) she’s a top shooter in whatever category she chooses to shoot. In my book a champion is a champion, it doesn’t matter if it’s a “Ladies” category, a “Mens” category or a mix. It was very telling of your friend’s values to want to do what she did, and I give her a lot of credit for thinking of others whether she won or not. I’m not sure if it would’ve helped but maybe I should’ve used the word appear instead of seem. And if a man gets beat by a woman and complains that it’s not fair because she either chose or was put into that category, then that’s his problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 13 hours ago, A.J. McDraw, SASS #52088 said: Only fair that Allie Mo deletes Creek's replies to me to demonstrate her unbiased editorial overview By not leaving half of the threads story to remain open.to be read and getting the incomplete picture of our discussion. I am not a Moderator. I was just stating my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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