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Costume matrix and Percussion revolver's and safety / penalties questions


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Hello all: New here.  Thank you in advance for reading and taking the time to type out barney style answers for the new guy. 

 

(Pics added for sightseeing)

 

Have shot alot of competition not ever a S.A.S.S. one.  I have printed the rule book an read it, making crib notes, and underlining likely issues. 

 

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My want is to use my uberti Walker Colt duelist style,  crossdraw (with angling to satisfy the 170, and inverted 90, to presentation), from a hooded cavalry holster. On a embelished black belt with primer pouch, knife, and possibles pouch. All set as a dedicated second belt, over and under my jeans belt. 

 

Shotgun and rifle options are not BP, but are " cowboy " loads. 

 

Weapons available for rifle .38 spl / 357 Rossi 94 with power reduced wad cutters. (Loaded to be below 1400fps) 

 

1887 lever action shotgun.  C87 CAI. Birdshot or low brass 2 3/4 12ga. 

 

Side match gun ( if i ever can) 

TC Seneca muzzle loader .45cal traditional cap n ball with 1860 CW replica 4x optic. 

 

 

 

My questions start there. 

 

Matrix

 

I have a felt trackers shaped hat with a silver badge concho band,  I want to do a heavy linen 3/4 buttoned tumeric colored distressed 'peasants' henley, and possibly primitive fur winter coat, shearling coat, or a can I do a poncho too? 

 

Can the Mexi peasant large button heavy-linen Henley fit the spagetti western costume description? Can a fur skin over coat with primitive fixtures? What about mexican rough knit ponchos, or the venerable wool sheperd knit poncho of that era? 

 

Boots are oilskin TL with a stirrup heel. Modern sole but not visible when standing. 

 

What I'm aiming for is spaghetti western displaced CW vet / silverado miner look . 

 

What if any costuming catigories and weapons subdivision can I define and shoot with these as?

 

 

 

What kind of cross over and matrix  subivisions are there for shooters who want to work stages with BP revolvers and then cartrige long arms? 

 

------------------

 

Weapons safety questions- 

 

Hammer down on empty chamber- 

For stages that require a load to six, BP can have a pre loaded uncapped chamber for the hammer to rest on in the holster. That supposed 6 shot stage requiring the cap to be set after the draw and on the clock. 

 

True? If yes:

 

  Shoot 5, pluck a cap and set, set timing, come to full cock and engage.

(All the while minding the 170.)?

 

Holster or stage uncocked revolver after spent sixth chamber.

 

 

---------

 

5 shot stages start with an empty uncaped nipple. 

 

Do we have to drop on a empty nipple if we accidenty cock it a sitxth time. 

 

Lets say the shooter gets excited and shoots all five but draws the hammer for six? 

 

This is just a matter of getting the CRO's attention and (ASK/GET/ACT ) Ask for aknowedgement to decock, Get permission and acknowledged safe condition to lower. Then ACT with safety to do so, and holster on to a spent chamber/nipple.  No penalty, jus extra seconds... Right? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Edited by The Hero of Canton
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The 10 Horns are scheduled to shoot this Saturday and Sunday. They can answer all your questions in less time than it took to type them here. BTW the 10 Horn range is on Blackland Clay and it will be muddy, so wear appropriate footwear.

 

All your guns to this point are SASS legal for any age based category. Sign up for one of them to start and as you learn the ropes you can switch categories. 

 

Shoot me a PM with your Email address and I'll send you a listing of all the clubs I am aware of in this part of Texas.

 

I'll most likely be shooting with the Texas Troublemakers this Saturday.  If you don't make the 10 Horns match you are welcome to join us Saturday at the Troublemakers.

 

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Welcome to the game, reading the rule book is a great first step. Follow Dave’s advice above and get to some matches, they’ll be eye opening experiences and perhaps life changing like they are for me and many others. A big part of the game is costuming and from your comments above you want to really get into it and that’s good, IMHO, of course. When you’re at a match don’t be afraid to ask questions. 

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2 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

The 10 Horns are scheduled to shoot this Saturday and Sunday. They can answer all your questions in less time than it took to type them here. BTW the 10 Horn range is on Blackland Clay and it will be muddy, so wear appropriate footwear.

 

All your guns to this point are SASS legal for any age based category. Sign up for one of them to start and as you learn the ropes you can switch categories. 

 

Shoot me a PM with your Email address and I'll send you a listing of all the clubs I am aware of in this part of Texas.

 

I'll most likely be shooting with the Texas Troublemakers this Saturday.  If you don't make the 10 Horns match you are welcome to join us Saturday at the Troublemakers.

 

This^, sign up in any legal age group and the rest will come by going to more matches. Good Luck:)

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2 hours ago, The Hero of Canton said:

My questions start there. 

 

Matrix

 

I have a felt trackers shaped hat with a silver badge concho band,  I want to do a heavy linen 3/4 buttoned tumeric colored distressed 'peasants' henley, and possibly primitive fur winter coat, shearling coat, or a can I do a poncho too? Yes to both

 

Can the Mexi peasant large button heavy-linen Henley fit the spagetti western costume description? Can a fur skin over coat with primitive fixtures? What about mexican rough knit ponchos, or the venerable wool sheperd knit poncho of that era?  Yes

 

Boots are oilskin TL with a stirrup heel. Modern sole but not visible when standing. Good to go.

 

What I'm aiming for is spaghetti western displaced CW vet / silverado miner look . 

 

What if any costuming catigories and weapons subdivision can I define and shoot with these as?

 

Any Age based category to start. Your clothing as described does not meet the requirements for B-Western or Classic Cowboy.  Get a couple of matches under your belt before you sign up for the other categories.

 

What kind of cross over and matrix  subivisions are there for shooters who want to work stages with BP revolvers and then cartrige long arms? 

 

C&B revolvers can be shot in any category. To shoot FC, FCD, FCGF, or Frontiersman you have to shoot BP in your rifle and shotgun as well.

 

------------------

 

Weapons safety questions- 

 

Hammer down on empty chamber- 

For stages that require a load to six, BP can have a pre loaded uncapped chamber for the hammer to rest on in the holster. That supposed 6 shot stage requiring the cap to be set after the draw and on the clock. 

 

True? If yes: True. That said you are highly unlikely to have a stage that requires 6 rounds in your revolver.

 

  Shoot 5, pluck a cap and set, set timing, come to full cock and engage.

(All the while minding the 170.)? C&B shooters may cap the 6th chamber any time after the beep. Most do it before the first shot from that pistol. Cartridge shooters load the 6th round per stage instructions.

 

Holster or stage uncocked revolver after spent sixth chamber. Holster with the hammer down on any fired / empty chamber.

 

 

---------

 

5 shot stages start with an empty uncaped nipple. Hammer down on an Uncapped chamber. If a 5 shot revolver hammer down on safety notch between chambers.

 

Do we have to drop on a empty nipple if we accidenty cock it a sitxth time. 

 

Lets say the shooter gets excited and shoots all five but draws the hammer for six? 

 

This is just a matter of getting the CRO's attention and (ASK/GET/ACT ) Ask for aknowedgement to decock, Get permission and acknowledged safe condition to lower. Then ACT with safety to do so, and holster on to a spent chamber/nipple.  No penalty, jus extra seconds... Right? 

 

Just pull the trigger and drop the hammer. takes a lot of doing this before damage will occur.

 

 

Question for you

 

Have you shot C&B pistols a lot?

 

If I were you I would put the word out that you need to borrow a set of cartridge pistols till you have a few matches under your belt.  You are going to have a lot of information to process at your first match and adding C&B pistols to the mix may just overwhelm and frustrate you.  

 

Those of us that shoot C&B pistols in SASS matches have them properly tuned for SASS. No modern C&B pistol will make it through a 5 or 6 stage SASS match without some fine tuning.  Stock pistols grow frustrating really really fast when used in a SASS match .

 

BTW 99.9% of all SASS C&B shooters started out shooting cartridge guns to get all the basics down. This includes me.

 

 

Edited by Sedalia Dave
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Welcome to this wonderful game!  As everyone has said go to your first match and don’t be ashamed to ask questions, everyone has to start sometime.  Like most of us you’ll go through different equipment and categories as you go along.  My first match when I signed up they asked me “what category” I didn’t know anything and said “cowboy?” :rolleyes:  Since then I’ve change rigs, guns, styles and powder, I’ve gone from cowboy? to now shooting Frontiersman and FCD.  So just get out there, have fun, enjoy yourself and hang on for a great ride. 

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Shiny! 

Welcome to the game.

Listen to the Pards up above. Get out to a match or three. Ask all the questions you can think of. Definitely shoot a match or two before you start buying equipment or clothes. You'll begin to get a feel for what works for you.

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Welcome to the game my ex called " Cowboy Heroin". Yes there is an awful lot to think about in this game ,and, amazingly all that thought goes out the window when the beeper goes off. Take advantage of the mistakes/ experience of the shooters around you to improve your game. We love to share our horror stories about our train wrecks over lunch after the match. You are joining a great family, have fun.

 

Imis 

Edited by Imis Twohofon,SASS # 46646
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Ha! An excuse to get another CB Revolver! 

 

So 2 revolvers are needed.... unless reloading a cartridge revolver on the timer? ( goes to see if that is kosher in rules) 

 

Reality of CB revolvers- you are out when you are out.  Makes sence to need 2. 

 

And yes.  CB revolvers are not foreign to me for target practice, but....I have never tried simulated prolonged gun fights with ours either 

 

I have dealt wit the cap jams , and cap failure from not being effectively seated on the nipple.  That rule to decap suprised me from the SASS rule book. That a failed cap has to be removed before holstering or it counts as a penalty/disqualifer depending. Normal target practice: you just give it a second strike. I have cured most of that with making a cap anlter push and seating adamantly. 

 

Moose milk has had to be broken out to un gum the works from carbon on longer range days.

 

All in all. Cap and ball was, is, and should be a PITA.... but that was the reality of those early guns.  Thats kinda the fun puzzle of it.

 

My son ( 17 who wants to do this too ) has a 1858 army.... perhaps we can share with the purchase of aditional holsters. 

 

Or just buy a matching brace for our play. 

 

Options.... flexibility. 

 

We shall see. 

 

Ill create a post for the after action from our first match day. 

 

Thank you all for the replys!. 

 

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Walkers are way cool, but in my experience become cumbersome for a 5-stage match. 
 

Since you’ve got a Remmie at your disposal, suggest you try it and your Walker at a match. That will tell you more than any of us can on this forum. 
 

Have fun!

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22 hours ago, The Hero of Canton said:

So 2 revolvers are needed.... unless reloading a cartridge revolver on the timer? ( goes to see if that is kosher in rules) 

 

****

 

I have dealt wit the cap jams , and cap failure from not being effectively seated on the nipple.  That rule to decap suprised me from the SASS rule book. That a failed cap has to be removed before holstering or it counts as a penalty/disqualifer depending. Normal target practice: you just give it a second strike. I have cured most of that with making a cap anlter push and seating adamantly. 

 

Almost without exception each stage requires ten pistol shots.  If a shooter had one cartridge revolver, the rules allow the shooter to reload the revolver on the clock.  Alternatively the shooter could simply take the penalties for rounds not fired.  In the real world someone would likely lend the shooter a second revolver.

 

In the event a cap or primer does not ignite, it is perfectly legal for the shooter to give it a second strike.  What you cannot do is reholster a revolver with a live round under the hammer, even if the round turns out to be an absolute dud.  If a shooter experienced a failure to fire and has gone around the wheel again and is uncertain of the location of the unfired round, the shooter can declare a malfunction and “ground” the revolver.  This negates any possible penalty if the live round has ended up under the hammer.

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As a person that shoots Frontiersman, The best advice I can give you is that if you have a cap that fails to fire even after a couple of strikes declare the pistol broke and sit it on a prop rather than reholster it. Much better that having a hang fire condition and shooting yourself in the foot. Once the stage is over get the TO's permission and clear the problem BEFORE going to the unloading table if as all possible. If this isn't possible, then with the TO's permission move to the unloading table and clear all your other guns. Once this is complete again get the TO's permission to move to an unused stage to clear the malfunction. 

 

BTW a hangfire that resulted in a person shooting themselves in the foot happened to a SASS shooter at a match this year. 

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On 12/2/2020 at 3:07 PM, The Hero of Canton said:

...

 

Have shot alot of competition not ever a S.A.S.S. one.  I have printed the rule book an read it, making crib notes, and underlining likely issues. 

 

--------------'20201031_141759.thumb.jpg.5aa5f5d3dfe094b427defa7ef840e789.jpg

 

...

 

Side match gun ( if i ever can) 

TC Seneca muzzle loader .45cal traditional cap n ball with 1860 CW replica 4x optic. 

...

 

 

That rifle would possibly be allowed only IF a Match Director offered an "OPEN" sidematch category.

There is no "official" category for muzzle-loading rifles.

REF: SHB pp.31-33 

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Welcome Hero to the best game and folks goin. Hang on for the addiction!

 

 

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Edited by Eyesa Horg
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So... was out at cabellas to get some caps....and asked if they had any remington CB in the back. 

 

Wife is mad... but I had to have it. 

Two pistols and Mischa could not be happier to be shareing a twin for our first few matches.

 

I will never find another for the price I paid.  

 

Ready to be sick? NIB 1858 Pietta 44 RGB44 $220 after the discount.

 

Now for a holster. 

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Load those '58s with minimum charges of BP (15 grains) if you want the brass frames to last.  Also, be prepared to replace the nipples with quality, aftermarket nipples.  The factory nipples often have dimensional flaws that affect reliability.  I think Slim Jim holsters look good with those revolvers.

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1 hour ago, The Hero of Canton said:

So... was out at cabellas to get some caps....and asked if they had any remington CB in the back. 

 

Wife is mad... but I had to have it. 

 

 

 

 

You think she's mad now, you just wait.......

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3 hours ago, Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 said:

Load those '58s with minimum charges of BP (15 grains) if you want the brass frames to last.  Also, be prepared to replace the nipples with quality, aftermarket nipples.  The factory nipples often have dimensional flaws that affect reliability.  I think Slim Jim holsters look good with those revolvers.

 

Before you buy any more firearms you really need to get to a match and ask a lot of questions.

 

Brass frame revolvers are very pretty but don't hold up very long. Heavy loads will cause the frame to slowly stretch and eventually the pistol will no longer function properly. My advice to you is if possible return it and save your money for a steel frame pistol. Yes they cost more but will last 10 times longer than the brass frame ones.

 

Contact the MD a week before the next match you plan to attend and let him/her know you are coming and that you need the loan of a pair of pistols and holsters. let them know you would like to posse with a C&B shooter. They will put the word out and if anyone in the club shoots C&B hopefully they can be there to give you pointers. In the long run this will save you at least a thousand dollars and a lot of grief from your spouse.

 

Done right, C&B and especially Frontiersman is the most fun you can have shooting CAS. Done improperly, it is exceptionally frustrating. 

 

BTW; a thick skin and the ability to laugh at yourself when most others would be cursing or crying is also beneficial.

 

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12 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

Before you buy any more firearms you really need to get to a match and ask a lot of questions.

 

Before you buy anything else (guns-clothes-umbrella-leather-cart........etc.....etc) go to as many local matches that you can find. Call the MD before hand, they can usually have different stuff for you to try. At the matches try out what you can, allot folks will be offering their assistance, take it. You may be surprised at the good deals you can find locally and here at our classifieds. Good Luck:)

 

Jefro:ph34r:Relax-Enjoy

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Costuming?  Last thing on the worry list.  Don't wear baseball caps, tennis shoes or T-shirts. You're good to go.

1st thing on the list is quality ear and eye protection.

Hat?  Not required but after you get a piece of hot brass down your neck you will be in the market for one. 

It is considered ungentlemanly to laugh but seeing one of the more heavily endowed lady shooters catch a piece of hot brass between the forward glandular anatomical protrusions it is a challenge not to laugh.  If you have no experience with hot brass be advised it can reach temperatures that instead of bouncing it will stick to the skin and continue to cook until removed.

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Got some tresso nipples on the way for all 3 and have a measure that pours 20grains perfectly. 

 

The remington brass frames seem to have better longevity than the open top colts. 

The big weakness with the box frame seems to be the lateral alignment of the barrel if the revolver is dropped or crushed in transport. 

 

I read threads about heavy loads stretching the frame and pulling out the arbor. On the colts The plan is to get a second uberti walker eventualy. 30 grains is too much for longevity. 

 

I think the plan going forward is to shoot these brasies till their frames fail, then invest in some steel frames that can use the cyls. 

 

Ill start a round count and load diary for both and make a review post in the future. 

 

Thank you all for watching over the new guy. 

 

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Loading a sixth pistol round on the clock is no longer common.  I have seen load one in rifle or pistol (with a 3-second bonus for pistol) for a 21 shot string like 1 on target 1, 2 on 2,...thru 6 on 6 for 21 shots.

I load cylinders on a stand and use pre-made tubes.  Not so much to quicken loading time, but to get more consistent loads and dealing with weather a simpler task.

20201031_162207.jpg

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On 12/5/2020 at 11:37 AM, The Hero of Canton said:

Got some tresso nipples on the way for all 3 and have a measure that pours 20grains perfectly. 

 

The remington brass frames seem to have better longevity than the open top colts. 

The big weakness with the box frame seems to be the lateral alignment of the barrel if the revolver is dropped or crushed in transport. 

 

I read threads about heavy loads stretching the frame and pulling out the arbor. On the colts The plan is to get a second uberti walker eventualy. 30 grains is too much for longevity. 

 

I think the plan going forward is to shoot these brasies till their frames fail, then invest in some steel frames that can use the cyls. 

 

Ill start a round count and load diary for both and make a review post in the future. 

 

Thank you all for watching over the new guy. 

 

I have a pair of 51 Navies with the brass frame in 36 caliber I have shot for 13 years with 15 grains of black with no problems at all. All of my 44’s are steel framed because I shoot 30 grains in all of them. Yes all because C& B revolvers reproduce in the safe faster than the cartridge counterparts so be careful. Welcome to the C&B world of cowboy action shooting.DC

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