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Advise on Roll Crimp VS Fold Crimp for Shotgun Shells


Crusty Steve

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Do shotgun shells with a roll crimp shuck easier/more reliable than those with a folded crimp? Or does the rolled crimp swell out when fired and keep the shell from coming out of the chamber? Advise would be appreciated.

 

Crusty Steve

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3 hours ago, Crusty Steve said:

Do shotgun shells with a roll crimp shuck easier/more reliable than those with a folded crimp? Or does the rolled crimp swell out when fired and keep the shell from coming out of the chamber? Advise would be appreciated.

 

Crusty Steve

I shoot 2" rolled crimp  in my Winchester 1897 and regular length folded crimp in my doubles.  Also in the clone 97 I shoot folded crimp.

 

Reason I shoot 2" rolled crimp in the Winchester, it will take six shells for Wild Bunch without modifying.

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I shoot both...If I am feeling ambitious and in the mood will roll crimp seems a bit more traditional as I shoot Frontiersman at least in my head it does. That said have not found any difference shucking them from my double vs a 8pt crimp. Both ways are loaded on my Mec Jr. But the roll crimped are finished with a roll crimper.

 

 

Sgt. H 

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Does anyone get more than one reload out of roll crimped hulls? 

 

I just started shotshell reloading, and my star crimps are horrible.  My roll crimps perform a lot better, but the shot hulls stay a bit crimped and it's too hard to get the wads in for the second reload.

 

(I'm using BP and fiber wads.)

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27 minutes ago, Diamond Jake said:

 

I just started shotshell reloading, and my star crimps are horrible.

 

(I'm using BP and fiber wads.)


Describe horrible: domed, caved, leaking shot, pinwheeled...??

 

In my experience most crimp problems in black powder shells can be fixed by tweaking the powder charge up or down to  get the column height just right.  Blackpowder and subs are very forgiving that way.

 

 I also have always preferred 8-point to 6-point crimps.

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2 hours ago, J-BAR #18287 said:


Describe horrible: domed, caved, leaking shot, pinwheeled...??

 

 

 

The proverbial pictures worth thousands of words:

 

One is one of my best; two are of my worst.  One is a typical roll crimp.

 

I've read enough to know that the column height is the issue, but if I use only one fiber wad the column is too short, unless I load more powder and shot than I need for SASS matches.  (I got some decent crimps with one fiber wad, but it was 75 gr FFG and almost 1 1/4 oz shot.) If I use two fiber wads (which I don't want to do for several reasons) the charge is lighter than I want.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Diamond Jake said:

 

The proverbial pictures worth thousands of words:

 

One is one of my best; two are of my worst.  One is a typical roll crimp.

 

I've read enough to know that the column height is the issue, but if I use only one fiber wad the column is too short, unless I load more powder and shot than I need for SASS matches.  If I use two fiber wads (which I don't want to do for several reasons) the charge is lighter than I want.

I'm still reading, learning, and studying. So this answer is from book lernin'.

 

You can split the wads. Besides overall column height, my reading suggests the wad should be at least as tall as the distance between the end of the shell and the entry to the barrel. But then, my reading also suggests it really does not matter at SASS distances.

 

But you can split the wads which might fix the crimp challenge. Try 1-1/2 wads.

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But my main question is still "How many people get more than one reloading with BP?"

 

If most people find their hulls are too damaged from the heat of BP to be worth reloading a second time, then I'll just do roll crimp.  Or, if the little tool that expands the mouth of the hull of shot roll crimped hulls works effectively I might do that.

 

Come to think of it, the really bad star crimps in my pic with the ripped crimps may have been on their second reload with BP, making the plastic brittle.

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And yet another cowboy falls victim to the old myth of worshipping equal volumes of shot and powder, and the irrational fear of plastic wads!  :o


4th bp loading, Remington STS hull, 2.5 cc (about 38 grains of 2F powder), white Claybusters wad, 1 oz. #8 shot.
 

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4th loading, Remington STS hull, 2 cc (30 grains) of 2F, gray wad, 7/8 oz. #8 shot.


EE96B3DC-E0E5-4D82-BBD5-520B174CD6F9.thumb.jpeg.8943f17e73a375d8f5b7ea15cbf9e7a8.jpeg
 

Ditch the fiber wads and massive powder charges already!!  You CAN enjoy lighter BP loads in your shotgun.

 

No one challenges my smoke, and the targets fall down.

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16 minutes ago, Diamond Jake said:

But my main question is still "How many people get more than one reloading with BP?"

 

If most people find their hulls are too damaged from the heat of BP to be worth reloading a second time, then I'll just do roll crimp.  Or, if the little tool that expands the mouth of the hull of shot roll crimped hulls works effectively I might do that.

 

Come to think of it, the really bad star crimps in my pic with the ripped crimps may have been on their second reload with BP, making the plastic brittle.

 

I tried to do as @J-BAR #18287 has shown but after many failed attempts I couldn’t master it, so I gave up.  With plastic hulls I was running into the same issue the powder made the plastic brittle, and when I used plastic wads no matter what I tried it was always a chore to get the plastic out of the barrels.  I’m definitely not criticizing the way J-Bar or anyone else who’ve mastered the plastic loading technique, I’m just saying I couldn’t.  I wound up switching to brass hulls and fiber wads and I actually enjoy loading them.  Yes, it does take a little longer to load them, but I can load about 50-60 in an hour and that’s fine with me.  I will also tell you that the brass shells shuck out really easy and with the fiber wads clean up is just a simple rinse, dry and lube.  Right now the tough part is getting brass hulls.  BTW my brass shell load is 3.7cc powder, nitro card, 2 fiber wads, overshot card, 1 ⅛ oz shot and another overshot card.

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18 minutes ago, Tequila Shooter said:

BTW my brass shell load is 3.7cc powder, nitro card, 2 fiber wads, overshot card, 1 ⅛ oz shot and another overshot card.

Just posting to note the bolded detail as possible value for my pending project. Please excuse this thread interruption.

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15 minutes ago, J-BAR #18287 said:

And yet another cowboy falls victim to the old myth of worshipping equal volumes of shot and powder, and the irrational fear of plastic wads!  :o


4th bp loading, Remington STS hull, 2.5 cc (about 38 grains of 2F powder), white Claybusters wad, 1 oz. #8 shot.
 


 

4th loading, Remington STS hull, 2 cc (30 grains) of 2F, gray wad, 7/8 oz. #8 shot.



 

Ditch the fiber wads and massive powder charges already!!  You CAN enjoy lighter BP loads in your shotgun.

 

No one challenges my smoke, and the targets fall down.

 

Yep I use 3 cc of powder CB0178-12 wad and 7/8 oz of shot. Works every time.

 

I found this load makes the hull seal the chamber so I get no blowby and the hulls don't stick.

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32 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

Yep I use 3 cc of powder CB0178-12 wad and 7/8 oz of shot. Works every time.

 

I found this load makes the hull seal the chamber so I get no blowby and the hulls don't stick.

 

What hulls?

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39 minutes ago, Diamond Jake said:

 

What hulls?

STS, Gun Club, Federal Top Gun, Fiochi, Rio and similar hulls.  I get two or 3 reloadings.

 

Use primer of choice.

 

Should also work in AA hulls but you might need to adjust the stack height slightly.

 

I have adjustable charge bars in both my MECs so it is easy to tweak the powder or shot to get the perfect crimp.

 

 

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I've gone thru brass hulls, rolled crimp plastic, rolled crimp paper, 6 point plastic and 8 point plastic.  I prefer about 50 grs of propellant (black, APP and 1Fg cannon  with a pink wad and 1 oz of whatever shot is cheapest. The crimp is prettier with an over shot wad under the crimp.  I have a shooter friend that shoots ESTATES and saves me the hulls.

The only combinations that do not work for me are 6 point hulls and or excessive powder charges.

Water thru the barrels followed by a wad of paper towels cleans any of the above.

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Simplified.  All Brass Hulls (Magtech).  35Gr 3f APP.  BP Spitfire 12Ga Wad.  1 Ounce shot of choice.  Overshot cards.  No crimp needed.  I've Lost count of the number of reloads.

 

I occasionally get a little snake skin (plastic residue) in the barrels.  Two squirts of PAM and it's out.  No Big Deal.

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the wad height and where it ends up in relationship to the end of the shell is less critical with the rolled crimp.  You just end up melting the crimp down until it fits.  Also you can take the cheap shells and make a very firm and well formed crimp that will go through most actions.

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I use once-fired AA hulls for both smokeless and real BP. Some could be reloaded again for smokeless, but I don’t bother because most have pinholes in the creases, which affects the final crimp. AA’s are useless after one load of real BP. Those who use Remington STS report more reloads because it’s a better hull. I don’t bother with ribbed hulls. 
 

I don’t give any thought to the number of reloads because the supply of once-fired AA’s is plentiful at our range.  Lots of shooters don’t reload and I don’t mind picking thru the buckets. 
 

I have the tools for roll crimping, but it’s too time consuming for me unless I want a shortened shell. 
 

Star-crimp shells can go awry for a variety of reasons including hull condition, a worn crimp starter die or mis-adjusted press. Check the troubleshooting section of your owners manual. If you don’t have one, most can be downloaded online. There’s likely a YouTube video out there as well. 
 

Adding on, I load 40gr equivalent of 2f Goex under a pink Claybusters wad and 1oz #8 shot. Crimps are a whisker concave, but not enough to leak any shot. Press is an old Mec 650. 
 

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4 hours ago, Diamond Jake said:

 

The proverbial pictures worth thousands of words:

 

One is one of my best; two are of my worst.  One is a typical roll crimp.

 

I've read enough to know that the column height is the issue, but if I use only one fiber wad the column is too short, unless I load more powder and shot than I need for SASS matches.  (I got some decent crimps with one fiber wad, but it was 75 gr FFG and almost 1 1/4 oz shot.) If I use two fiber wads (which I don't want to do for several reasons) the charge is lighter than I want.

What kind of press was used for star crimp?

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45 minutes ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

What kind of press was used for star crimp?

 

An old MEC600 jr that I got at an estate sale for $30.  I only use it for depriming, pushing the wads in, and crimping.  I measure powder and shot with Lee dippers.

 

There were no crimp starters when I got the press so those are new.

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15 minutes ago, Diamond Jake said:

 

An old MEC600 jr that I got at an estate sale for $30.  I only use it for depriming, pushing the wads in, and crimping.  I measure powder and shot with Lee dippers.

 

There were no crimp starters when I got the press so those are new.

Here’s a link to a pre-1985 Mec Jr. 
 

https://www.mecoutdoors.com/Content/documents/600jr.pdf

 

Read the sections about the crimp starter and final crimp carefully. Your good shell looks like item 4 in the troubleshooting guide. Suggest you back off a bit. 
 

The mashed crimps could be bad hulls. The opening of the hull should look uniform. If one or more of the creases vary too much, the crimp starter will mangle them. Also be sure that the crimp starter is free to move on its pivot. 
 

If this doesn’t work, try smooth sided hulls. 
 

Good luck!

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I've been reloading BP for cowboy since 1987 on my old 600Jr press I bought back in 1974 when I started skeet shooting.  I use a #43 bushing for powder (Goex Cartridge or 2F), now I use a Claybusters pink wad, 1 oz of #8 or 9 shot and Winchester or Federal primers.  I use once fired AAs.  Saved from when I shoot smokeless in either cowboy or WB matches, and picked up from the range when others don't reload their shotshells.  I probably have collected an extra 3-400 hulls and keep about 250 loaded, ready to shoot.  I buy one case of AAs when they're on sale or Winchester is offering their $2/box rebate about every other year.  That's about $89 for two years of shooting for the # of matches I attend during the year.

Here are two random BP reloads of mine, next to a new unfired AA.

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I shoot a double, take the barrels off run, the water till it's hot, rinse until it looks like all the powder fouling is out, then using a cotton patch wrapped around nylon brush push the "ribbons" out, rinse a 2nd time, then using a dry nylon brush, run a clean patch soaked in a metal preservative, and put the gun away after wiping it down with a n, dry rag to keep my finger prints off the metal.

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10 minutes ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

Here’s a link to a pre-1985 Mec Jr. 
 

https://www.mecoutdoors.com/Content/documents/600jr.pdf

 

Read the sections about the crimp starter and final crimp carefully. Your good shell looks like item 4 in the troubleshooting guide. Suggest you back off a bit. 
 

The mashed crimps could be bad hulls. The opening of the hull should look uniform. If one or more of the creases vary too much, the crimp starter will mangle them. Also be sure that the crimp starter is free to move on its pivot. 
 

If this doesn’t work, try USE smooth sided hulls. 
 

Good luck!

This>  Luck won't factor into it!

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6 hours ago, Diamond Jake said:

But my main question is still "How many people get more than one reloading with BP?"

 

If most people find their hulls are too damaged from the heat of BP to be worth reloading a second time, then I'll just do roll crimp.  Or, if the little tool that expands the mouth of the hull of shot roll crimped hulls works effectively I might do that.

 

Come to think of it, the really bad star crimps in my pic with the ripped crimps may have been on their second reload with BP, making the plastic brittle.

Howdy Jake, I get several reloads with Rem STS hulls and plastic wads using the star crimp. My loads vary anywhere from 45gr-47 real BP, 7/8oz shot and Win WAA12SL Pink wad, to 57gr with Ballistic Products short wads, and to 65gr BP, 1 1/8oz shot and Red Wad.  IMHO 75gr is a bit much for our game. Here's a copy and paste from several years ago at CAS City. Good Luck:)

"Howdy Two-Bits,  I shoot a load simular to Noz wtih the Pink wad. Again as others have said the Win WAA 12R (CB 1138-12) is good for about 60-65gr and 1 1/8oz shot. I prefer to use a little less BP and have found several wads that fit all my needs. Besides the Win Pink wad there are several short shell wads from BPI that really work well.

1 1/8oz - 54-57gr ffg with BPI short wad #72SSW..........my favorite for big matches ;)
Short Shell #72SSW
1oz - 48-50gr ffg with BPI Helix Driver #18.......another big match fav
Helix #18
7/8oz - 43-45gr ffg with Win Pink wad AA12SL (CB1100-12).......my local fav ;D
WAA12SSL
7/8oz - 45-47gr ffg with BPI Helix Driver #21......works good with the new two piece AA hulls
Helix #21

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16 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

Yep I use 3 cc of powder CB0178-12 wad and 7/8 oz of shot. Works every time.

 

I found this load makes the hull seal the chamber so I get no blowby and the hulls don't stick.

+1, although I'm using 3.1  cc of 2F and the crimps look just like my smokeless ones. Even when reusing the hulls. I'm loading on my MEC Grabber, but doing the powder with a dipper.

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17 hours ago, Tequila Shooter said:

 

I tried to do as @J-BAR #18287 has shown but after many failed attempts I couldn’t master it, so I gave up.  With plastic hulls I was running into the same issue the powder made the plastic brittle, and when I used plastic wads no matter what I tried it was always a chore to get the plastic out of the barrels.  I’m definitely not criticizing the way J-Bar or anyone else who’ve mastered the plastic loading technique, I’m just saying I couldn’t.  I wound up switching to brass hulls and fiber wads and I actually enjoy loading them.  Yes, it does take a little longer to load them, but I can load about 50-60 in an hour and that’s fine with me.  I will also tell you that the brass shells shuck out really easy and with the fiber wads clean up is just a simple rinse, dry and lube.  Right now the tough part is getting brass hulls.  BTW my brass shell load is 3.7cc powder, nitro card, 2 fiber wads, overshot card, 1 ⅛ oz shot and another overshot card.

Pick up a couple appropriately sized rubber stoppers for the barrels. Squirt in some Windex with vinegar. Rotate occasionally. Remove stopper and pour out Windex. The stuff about half  of the half sized paper towels in the chamber and push thru with a cleaning rod. The plastic will come out like an accordioned snake. Sometimes a little normal cleanup from there, but usually comes out clean the first time. I like to oil the barrels afterwards. YMMV

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21 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Pick up a couple appropriately sized rubber stoppers for the barrels. Squirt in some Windex with vinegar. Rotate occasionally. Remove stopper and pour out Windex. The stuff about half  of the half sized paper towels in the chamber and push thru with a cleaning rod. The plastic will come out like an accordioned snake. Sometimes a little normal cleanup from there, but usually comes out clean the first time. I like to oil the barrels afterwards. YMMV

This is very close to my technique.  I don't use stoppers and just set the barrels horizontal.  When shooting a sub I use any discount store house brand window cleaner without vinegar.  Oiling after cleaning is essential otherwise the plastic adheres quite well and is hard to remove.  Any oil works.  I've used Ballistol, Rem Oil, spray cooking oil and synthetic motor oil all with equal success.

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34 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Pick up a couple appropriately sized rubber stoppers for the barrels. Squirt in some Windex with vinegar. Rotate occasionally. Remove stopper and pour out Windex. The stuff about half  of the half sized paper towels in the chamber and push thru with a cleaning rod. The plastic will come out like an accordioned snake. Sometimes a little normal cleanup from there, but usually comes out clean the first time. I like to oil the barrels afterwards. YMMV

 

Stopper size for 10 and 12 gauge is a #1 (19/14mm x 26mm)

Stopper size for 16 gauge is a #0 (17/13mm x 21mm )

Stopper size for 20 gauge is a #00 (15/11mm x 21mm) 

 

I get mine from the local Ace Hardware.

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Sorry if I've hi-jacked this thread, but I'm really new to reloading shotshells.

 

Can these wads mentioned above be used with any hulls?

 

That's one of the reasons I'm using Fiber Wads; I have three or four makes of hulls (cheap Federal, Remington Game Loads, WIN AA, and Estate) and I thought the plastic wads have to be used with specific hulls.

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I've used the Claybuster Gray CB0178-12 wads for both Rem. STS & AA hulls with no issues at all. Even old cracked AA's. These are the same wads I use for smokeless. I've also used the pink winchester wads with 1oz. of lead and had good results. I did use some old 6 point remington hulls years ago and they also worked OK. I may be wrong, but I think you'll be OK with any hull for our game as long as they shuck for you. When my STS's all go bad, I'm going back to some old one piece AA's I acquired. A few thousand, so I likely won't keep them after loading with BP.

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17 minutes ago, Diamond Jake said:

Sorry if I've hi-jacked this thread, but I'm really new to reloading shotshells.

 

Can these wads mentioned above be used with any hulls?

 

That's one of the reasons I'm using Fiber Wads; I have three or four makes of hulls (cheap Federal, Remington Game Loads, WIN AA, and Estate) and I thought the plastic wads have to be used with specific hulls.

Not for the usual cowboy loads. I use Claybusters 7/8 wads in every hull I load (7/8 oz of shot)- currently at least 4 different makes.

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26 minutes ago, Diamond Jake said:

Sorry if I've hi-jacked this thread, but I'm really new to reloading shotshells.

 

Can these wads mentioned above be used with any hulls?

 

That's one of the reasons I'm using Fiber Wads; I have three or four makes of hulls (cheap Federal, Remington Game Loads, WIN AA, and Estate) and I thought the plastic wads have to be used with specific hulls.

 

With Smokeless loads the recipe needs to be followed as printed.  Unlike Rifles and Pistols, Shotguns have very little margin for error when it comes to chamber pressure. In some instances just changing to a different brand of primer can increase chamber pressures my more than 10%. This cab be enough to cause the shotgun to fail.

 

In case you are not aware the reason different brands of hulls call for different wads is that their internal dimensions vary slightly. The base wad height varies, some hulls are tapered inside, and internal diameters vary. This is why the same powder charge and shot weight will give different velocities and pressures in different hulls.  

 

With real BP and subs the pressure curves are significantly different than smokeless powders and unless the person reloading the hulls does something incredibly off the wall there is no chance of over pressuring the chamber and causing a catastrophic failure. This allows the shooter a pretty wide latitude in mixing components.

 

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28 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

... When my STS's all go bad, I'm going back to some old one piece AA's I acquired. A few thousand, so I likely won't keep them after loading with BP.

 

Our local club has been giving a box of STS to everyone that shoots a clean match, so MAYBE SOMEDAY I'll have some STS to try!  ;-)

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