New Zealand gun confiscation

[Backdoor Trots]

After the  christchurch shooting, new zealand instituted a gun confiscation program..One problem, many of the  previously law abiding citizens were now criminals because of their non compliance to the law.Roughly 2/3 of gun owners refused to the confiscation and as yet have not given up ownership.

Back in the 80's I had the good fortune to be stationed with a straight leg infantry unit in Ft wainwright alaska.I remember talking to locals about a recently overturned sales tax.It seemed the legislators wanted more money from their constituents so they came up with a penny tax on all retail sales.

As the good citizens of fairbanks shared with me ,legislators had to repeal the tax due to a mass revolt by the people.THEY REFUSED TO PAY.

Did you know that as a juror in the U.S. if you feel the law is faulted while reviewing the facts of the case the jury has the right to judge the law as well as the accused.Most judges will not agree to this finding but under the constitution it is allowable.

When the Biden team comes after our guns as they have ambitiously stated they would .I hope we can do a little better than our brothers in new zealand and get a little closer to 0% compliance.

[bgavin]

What are you *really* going to do when cop(s) come to your door with a court order to confiscate your guns?

• Shoot the Cop
• Explain the 2nd Amendment
• Refuse Entry on 2nd Amendment grounds
• Stand by helplessly

#1 - your rectum will be married to your cell mate for eternity
#2 - will get you cuffed and placed in the police cruiser
#3 - will get you beaten up, cuffed, and placed in the cruiser
#4 - helplessly watch them ransack and confiscate your gun safe

Law enforcement and the courts will systematically destroy you if you refuse to surrender your guns to a court order.

Which of your neighbors and friends will bring weapons and stand by you?  

Which of them is willing to be financially destroyed, made destitute and homeless by the courts?

"We must, indeed, all hang together or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately."
--Ben Franklin, 1776, Signing the Declaration of Independence

 

[Blackwater 53393]

The biggest thing in our favor is that the infrastructure to enforce a gun grab is not there at this time. 

 

Just as in those countries where “Buy Backs” and other forms of gun-grabs have been less than successful, there isn’t enough law enforcement to handle such a blanket undertaking.  They will make a big production of nabbing and prosecuting a few well known individuals to try to intimidate the rest and hope that we will all fall in line!!

 

In counties like the one I live in, the police have signed onto resolutions stating that they will refuse to enforce confiscation and door to door searches. County and city governments have joined the “2A Sanctuary” movements.

 

While they may go through the motions, most local LEOs are more likely to find ways to circumvent any such orders, at least in this part of the world.

 

 I’m old enough and contrary enough to let them take me the hard way.  They can feed, clothe, and shelter me at government expense!!  By the time they get through with the legal gymnastics and song and dance, I will be so old that I would be a burden to my family anyway!!

 

Being a small pillar of the community and friends with local law enforcement doesn’t hurt! Having them as friends is mutually beneficial to us all!  Make friends with those who are important parts of the community and friendly to our positions!!

[Loophole LaRue, SASS #51438]

Maybe I'm slow, but how exactly will the State know what guns you own?  Aren't background check records, by law, not permitted to be used to create a list of gun owners?  What else exists?  Sales records maintained by FFLs?  Again, aren't they insulated from use unless they are needed for investigation of a specific crime?

 

I know, I know...when the government wants something they usually get it; but my suspicion is that most gun owners have one or two guns tucked away that do not appear on any official document, and that the process of identifying and locating all these guns would be overwhelming.

 

With millions of ARs in civilian use, I also suspect that the Supreme Court would have significant problems with any confiscation plan for guns in "common use".

 

LL

[bgavin]

Gun registration occurs for every firearm purchase on the mandatory DROS (dealer record of sale) form.

In California, this form is both paper and online for instant access by gov't authorities on a 24x7 basis.
All firearm transactions except illegal criminal activities go through FFL and the DROS process.
 

----------------------
Firearm DROS
----------------------
• Purchaser's First, Middle and Last Name
• Alias First, Middle and Last Name
• Street Address, City, State, ZIP'
• Telephone number
• ID Type, ID Number
• Gender
• Race
• Eye Color
• Hair Color
• Height and Weight
• Date of Birth
• Place of Birth
• U.S. Citizen
• Firearm Safety Course number
• Make
• Model
• Caliber(s)
• Serial Number
• Other Number
• Type
• Category
• Color
• Barrel Length
• Frame/Receiver Only
• New or Used
• FSD Compliance
• Material
• Comment

----------------------------
Ammunition DROS
----------------------------
• Purchaser's First, Middle and Last Name
• Alias First, Middle and Last Name
• Street Address, City, State, ZIP
• Telephone number
• ID Type, ID Number
• Gender
• Race
• Eye Color
• Hair Color
• Height and Weight
• Date of Birth
• Place of Birth
• U.S. Citizen
• Caliber
• Condition
• Delivered By
• Delivery Date/Time
• Eligibility Check DROS Number
• Make
• Quantity
• * Bullet Type
• * Bullet Weight
• * Casing
• * Cost/Round
• * Muzzle Energy
• * Muzzle Velocity
• * Primer Type
• * Usage Type

  * Not currently tracked

 

[Still hand Bill]

California confiscates about 40k guns per year.   They have a law enforcement division dedicated to confiscation from people who have become “prohibited “.    They can do it because they have a registry.  Some states that would be a lot harder as there is no official registration.  I expect some of the reason for the new 4473 is to make it easier for an ocr system to create a data base by scanning.  
 

 100% background checks are the only way to create a registry.  Given enough time most guns will be transferred and thus there will be a record that it exists and who should own it.    Right now that’s not the case most places.   I expect if a registration bill is pushed through there will be massive noncompliance. 

[Blackwater 53393]

Those bits of information are NOT collected in my state!!  NO DROS here!!

 

 The paper copies of FFL form 4473 are held by the store unless requested for a criminal case or in the event of a store closure.

 

The paperwork of closed stores is held in bulk by BATFE.  Supposedly, it remains unread and uncatalogued. It is not transferred to computer or other storage media.

 

It would require a massive amount of physical handling to catalogue and collate that information and the files still in the possession of gun store owners.

 

 I know many who own more than a few guns that are not and have never been run through “the system”!!!  

[Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967]

 

1 hour ago, Loophole LaRue, SASS #51438 said:

Maybe I'm slow, but how exactly will the State know what guns you own?  Aren't background check records, by law, not permitted to be used to create a list of gun owners?  What else exists?  Sales records maintained by FFLs?  Again, aren't they insulated from use unless they are needed for investigation of a specific crime?

 

I know, I know...when the government wants something they usually get it; but my suspicion is that most gun owners have one or two guns tucked away that do not appear on any official document, and that the process of identifying and locating all these guns would be overwhelming.

 

With millions of ARs in civilian use, I also suspect that the Supreme Court would have significant problems with any confiscation plan for guns in "common use".

 

LL

 

You are correct in that many people may have firearms that were acquired without official record of transfer* - inheritance, gifts, barter, even private purchase before "official transfer" was required.

 

However, the government not being permitted to use sales records is unfortunately a myth.

 

One night about 1975 my old pard Hank and I were "temporarily detained" by members of a Bay Area police department.  We were armed at the time; after a short period our handguns and ammunition were returned to us and we were sent on our way.

 

We were both astonished when the officers called in our guns make, model, and serial numbers.  In a matter of minutes they were provided our names, descriptions, addresses, and where we'd purchased the arms.  We had not yet been asked for identification.

 

This was 45 years ago.

 

*In California, the government actually expects us to register "acquired" firearms - even between family members by filing a form and paying a fee (BOF 4544A Report of Operation of Law or Intra-Familial Firearm Transaction).  Intra-Familial Transfers are allowed only between spouses or parent/offspring; other transfers between relatives require an FFL transfer.  So, does everyone comply?  Gee... possibly not.  Does this leave those "scofflaws" vulnerable to  prosecution/persecution by the State?  Sadly... it does.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Blackwater 53393]

This too must be a California thing.  The last time I had a firearm in my possession that was subjected to a trace, they found who the manufacturer, (stamped on the weapon) the original seller, and the original buyer were. There was no record of any theft and no further record of sale, gift, or trade.

 

 The gun was returned to me and I was allowed to go on my way.

 

No offense, but it is extremely unlikely that I will EVER go back to California!  Even at extreme need, there’s NOTHING there to make me want to return.

 

 

[bgavin]

No offense taken.

However... House Resolution #5717 seeks to make the CA oppression into a nation-wide standard.

• 30% tax on all firearms
• 50% tax on all ammunition
• $500 fine for each violation
• $50 million yearly for attorney general budget
• Colleges and Universities are gun-free zones
• Expanded Red Flag laws
• Mandatory 21 years minimum age for purchase or transport
• Mandatory Federal gun owner license
• Mandatory Federal gun owner license annual background check
• Mandatory gun locks
• Mandatory secure storage
• Universal background checks
• Warrantless searches of gun stores

 

Mandatory secure storage with $500 and 5-year penalties
Forfeiture of all firearm not securely stored or from Red Flag extreme risk status
Requires firearms stored in safes
Requires firearm trigger locks

Red Flag status extended to 180 days
Red Flag can be "reckless use, display or brandishing or implicit threat"
Red Flag, surrender all guns and permits after premises search
$1,000 fine for frivolous filing of Red Flag complaint

Law enforcement searches of gun shop inventory and records without a warrant.
DROS level records of all buyers, not just CA

Banned:
More than 10 rounds except 22LR tube magazines
Manufactured weight more than 50 oz. unloaded
Semi-auto shotguns with more than 5 round magazine
All AKs and ARs, Mini14,
Barrel shrouds as heat shields
Threaded barrels
Unfinished frames and receivers
Ghost guns
Silencers and Mufflers

This oppression is what the Democrat has pending in the House, for our entire nation.
All they need is a Democrat Senate (or RINOs Collins, Murkowski and Romney), and a Democrat President.

 

[Backdoor Trots]

No offense but Gavin Nuisance would like to make heroine addiction,feces lined streets and zero gun ownership a national standard as well.

.Not to mention prop 47...Who came up with that bit of nonsense..900 dollars worth of shoplifting is a misdemeanor,REALLY.

I lived in san diego years ago and welcomed the day i left.Guns intact.

[Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967]

2 hours ago, Backdoor Trots said:

No offense but Gavin Nuisance would like to make heroine addiction,feces lined streets and zero gun ownership a national standard as well.

Not to mention prop 47...Who came up with that bit of nonsense..900 dollars worth of shoplifting is a misdemeanor,REALLY.

I lived in san diego years ago and welcomed the day i left.Guns intact.

 

Prop 47... which released countless criminals, and sent many more back to counties from state prisons - where they were released as required by law do to overcrowding at those facilities.  Prop 47... the proposition that reclassified many felonies as misdemeanors - and made any theft of property or money less that $950 a simple "ticket-able" offfense.  

 

Prop 47 - presented to the voters as the "Safe Neighborhoods and Schools Act" under the oversight of Governor Jerry Brown.  And State Attorney General Kamala Harris.

 

This proposition was passed in 2014; the very next year saw a 10% increase in violent crimes and 8% increase in property crimes.

 

In our most recent election California was presented Prop 20, which would have corrected some of the Prop 47 debacle.

 

Prop 20 was defeated.  

 

We were also presented Prop 17, which returns voting privileges to felons.

 

Prop 17 passed.

 

This place is nuts... and the West Coast "Powers That Be" reeeally want to share their vision and plans of Utopia with the rest of the country.

 

Be vigilant, America!

 

 

 

 

[bgavin]

I voted against Prop 20.

Yes, it was trying to restore some of the penalties removed by the disastrous Prop 47.
Identify theft, bad check writing, and sexual trafficking were all made non-crimes by Prop 47.

I voted against Prop 20 because they embedded a wolf in sheep's clothing in the wording.
The fine print made any crime against homosexuals an automatic "hate crime".

Nope.
Making that demographic intro a protected species is not equal treatment under the law.
Not acceptable.