2 WTCs

[Tequila Shooter]

Scenario 1 - Shooter has rifle staged, loaded pistols holstered.  Shooter jacks a round out of the rifle, bends down picks up the round, fires it, then moves on to the next window (as per stage instructions) and shoots both pistols.  When the shooter was on the line no call was made by the TO or the spotters.  WTC?

 

Scenario 2 - Same as scenario 1 but this time the shooter has the loaded pistols staged in a different window than the one the rifle is shot at.  WTC?

 

Thanks 

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

1 no call as long as no one is swept with the long gun when the round is retrieved

 

2 no call same stipulation as above

 

SHB of 18

Quote

A holstered revolver (loaded or empty) with the hammer fully down on an empty chamber or expended case is considered safe and may not be interpreted as sweeping another shooter while safely secured in the holster

 

Penalty for picking up a dropped was removed from the SHB years ago

 

SHB pg 28

See prairie dog below...

 

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

From Page 28 of the shooter's handbook:

Any ammunition dropped by a shooter in the course of reloading any firearm during a stage or ejected from any firearm may be retrieved and replaced, or alternatively, must be replaced from the shooters person or other area as allowed by stage description.

 

NO CALL

--Dawg

[Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L]

both no call

 

next shooter!

[MBFields]

Did loaded pistols break 170 as bent down/over to pickup round? Never mind.

[Captain Bill Burt]

28 minutes ago, MBFields said:

Did loaded pistols break 170 as bent down/over to pickup round?

Note Branchwater's quote.  Holstered pistols may not be interpreted as sweeping someone, nor as having broken the 170..

[MBFields]

Yep. Did not read well enough and should have remembered anyway.

[Tequila Shooter]

Thanks all!  It pays to know the rules.  I got called for a MS for picking up a dropped round.  I didn’t officially protest it because when I questioned the call both the TO and the Posse Marshall agreed that it was in the SHB that you could not pick up a dropped round.  Now I know and will make sure others are made aware.

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

Yep, it was like that for a long time, but the rule has been recently changed.

 

However, shooter must be aware that it is possible that a revolver might drop out of his holster while bending down to retrieve the round.

And he is on the hook for that!

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Quote

 

2) Should the MSV for retrieval of dropped/ejected ammo be deleted?

PASSED - For 88.56% Against 11.07% Abstain .37%

 

2015 TG Summit Minutes

[Hellbender]

47 minutes ago, Tequila Shooter said:

Thanks all!  It pays to know the rules.  I got called for a MS for picking up a dropped round.  I didn’t officially protest it because when I questioned the call both the TO and the Posse Marshall agreed that it was in the SHB that you could not pick up a dropped round.  Now I know and will make sure others are made aware.

Howdy Tequila Shooter,

 

Was that MS called long after the fact?  You may or may not remember but I was one of those spotters who witnessed what happened (I do remember seeing you bend down and pick up that round) and none of us spotters or the TO thought anything of it.  I do recall seeing a huddle of the head honchos taking place long afterwards at a distance - was that when the MS was called on you?  I thought we had finished that stage by then. How did this happen????

 

Hellbender

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Quote

 

Minor Safety Violation (MSV) infractions include:

- Leaving empty or live round(s) in a magazine, action, or carrier of the long gun in which it was loaded.

- Open, empty long guns that slip and fall – but do not break the 170° safety rule or sweep anyone.

- Cocking a revolver before it reaches 45° down range.

 

SHB p.23

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

1 hour ago, Tequila Shooter said:

Thanks all!  It pays to know the rules.  I got called for a MS for picking up a dropped round.  I didn’t officially protest it because when I questioned the call both the TO and the Posse Marshall agreed that it was in the SHB that you could not pick up a dropped round.  Now I know and will make sure others are made aware.

It's a good idea to keep a copy of the Shooters Handbook in your guncart.

 

Randy

[Tequila Shooter]

2 hours ago, Hellbender said:

Howdy Tequila Shooter,

 

Was that MS called long after the fact?  You may or may not remember but I was one of those spotters who witnessed what happened (I do remember seeing you bend down and pick up that round) and none of us spotters or the TO thought anything of it.  I do recall seeing a huddle of the head honchos taking place long afterwards at a distance - was that when the MS was called on you?  I thought we had finished that stage by then. How did this happen????

 

Hellbender

 

Yep, that’s the one.  First it was “no call” then went on to “it should’ve been a SD”, that became “a MSV”.  And @Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 is correct, I thought it was a no call, but without the SHB or my phone (to look it up) I gave up the fight.  If I were a top shooter or the type to complain a lot I probably would have argued it, but when they use a calendar to measure your stage it becomes a learning experience.  It was good to finally meet you and look forward to shooting with you again!

[Hellbender]

2 hours ago, Tequila Shooter said:

 

Yep, that’s the one.  First it was “no call” then went on to “it should’ve been a SD”, that became “a MSV”.  And @Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 is correct, I thought it was a no call, but without the SHB or my phone (to look it up) I gave up the fight.  If I were a top shooter or the type to complain a lot I probably would have argued it, but when they use a calendar to measure your stage it becomes a learning experience.  It was good to finally meet you and look forward to shooting with you again!

I thought everyone was aware of that rule change but I guess not. 

Same here Tequila - I'm glad we finally met.  Had we not ended up on the same posse we might have not found each other until they called out our names for the shooter prizes and the awards - after that we both would have sought each other out!

[Captain Clark]

2 hours ago, Tequila Shooter said:

 

Yep, that’s the one.  First it was “no call” then went on to “it should’ve been a SD”, that became “a MSV”.  And @Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 is correct, I thought it was a no call, but without the SHB or my phone (to look it up) I gave up the fight.  If I were a top shooter or the type to complain a lot I probably would have argued it, but when they use a calendar to measure your stage it becomes a learning experience.  It was good to finally meet you and look forward to shooting with you again!

A shooters level of ability should have zero affect on the correct calls being made! You paid your money just like everyone else IMO!

The most positive outcome of the situation would be for an RO course at the club level to educate those that might not get out very often 

[Scarlett]

I was TO and a brand new (first match) shooter dropped a shell and immediately bent to pick it up... he was safe and did not break 170 and I knew it was a no call... however, after the stage no fewer than three people (longer time sass Members than I) said you can’t do that... I knew the rule had been changed however, I don’t have a book in my cart or easily accessible on my phone so I held my ground and confirmed with a match official. 
 

Hugs, 

Scarlett

[Dusty Sometimes]

As the Match Director for this match and as a new and first time TG for our club, I was the one who mistakenly made this call. I knew the new and updated rule but was concerned about the SASS admonition that this must be done "safely".  After a conference and revisiting the SHB afterwards, I reversed the penalty, corrected the stage score and advised the shooter. 

 

I'm a brand new TG and learning. We've had numerous RO courses scheduled this year but have had to cancel due to Covid. I've learned so much this weekend, in my first time ever as Match Director and as a new TG. I'm thankful to Tequila Shooter for his patience and understanding. It's not enjoyable or fun confirming and assessing penalties during a big match on your friends, but I know it's part of the duties that you've volunteered for and it's important. I hope all shooters understand this. 

 

Dusty Sometimes 

Newest TG in SASS

[Tex Jones, SASS 2263]

19 minutes ago, Dusty Sometimes said:

As the Match Director for this match and as a new and first time TG for our club, I was the one who mistakenly made this call. I knew the new and updated rule but was concerned about the SASS admonition that this must be done "safely".  After a conference and revisiting the SHB afterwards, I reversed the penalty, corrected the stage score and advised the shooter. 

 

I'm a brand new TG and learning. We've had numerous RO courses scheduled this year but have had to cancel due to Covid. I've learned so much this weekend, in my first time ever as Match Director and as a new TG. I'm thankful to Tequila Shooter for his patience and understanding. It's not enjoyable or fun confirming and assessing penalties during a big match on your friends, but I know it's part of the duties that you've volunteered for and it's important. I hope all shooters understand this. 

 

Dusty Sometimes 

Newest TG in SASS

Good on you.  Mistakes happen, even to match directors.  You did the right thing. 

[Tequila Shooter]

My compliments to @Dusty Sometimes and the entire crew of the Bayou Bounty Hunters for a good match this past weekend.  Every pard who plays our game can and will make mistakes, it is what we do after we realize it that shows our character.  I applaud BBH for reviewing a questionable call and reversing their decision and even though for my personal overall ranking it really didn’t matter that much, it may come into play for a better shooter at a future match.   

 

I want everyone to be clear that it was as much my fault as anyone’s because I only thought I knew the rule instead of having a current copy of the SHB with me to verify it.  Moving forward, even during these COVID restrictions, I would suggest that all clubs hold local training with TO’s using the SHB to ensure that everyone is aware of current rules, any interpretations/clarifications that come up and carry a copy of the RO card.

[The Verdigris Kid]

At all the clubs I have shot at in my short 6 months into shooting this sport, all the clubs have a standard rule, if a round hits the ground it is dead. If it lands on the table so it doesn't require bending over to retrieve it can still be used. In other words, if you jack one out and it lands on the table you can pick it up and reload it, if it falls off the table to the ground it is dead, get another from your belt to reload.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

4 minutes ago, The Verdigris Kid said:

At all the clubs I have shot at in my short 6 months into shooting this sport, all the clubs have a standard rule, if a round hits the ground it is dead. If it lands on the table so it doesn't require bending over to retrieve it can still be used. In other words, if you jack one out and it lands on the table you can pick it up and reload it, if it falls off the table to the ground it is dead, get another from your belt to reload.

 

What is the penalty for retrieving a dropped round from the ground at those clubs?

 

[The Verdigris Kid]

23 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

What is the penalty for retrieving a dropped round from the ground at those clubs?

 

I'll find out and get back with you.

 

[Nawlins Kid SASS #36107]

On 11/8/2020 at 4:43 PM, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

2015 TG Summit Minutes

 

So after five years there is confusion over this rule?? Now if a local club wants to band  retrieving a dropped round then they should " inform" shooters of their decision. Maybe it's time for clubs contact a RO instructor and have RO classes.  

 

Nawlins

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

12 minutes ago, Nawlins Kid said:

 

So after five years there is confusion over this rule?? Now if a local club wants to band  retrieving a dropped round then they should " inform" shooters of their decision. Maybe it's time for clubs contact a RO instructor and have RO classes.  

 

Nawlins

 

I doubt there is any confusion.
Sent you email.