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Newguy

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Hi,

 I am a new guy here with a question that has probably been addressed many times but I can't seem to find the specific answer. I have an 1873 Uberti Sporting Rifle in 357 mag. that I purchased new in 2008. The serial # begins with W25####. It has never been fired.  I took it out to the range for the first time a while back with some Hornady 357 lever evolution ammo so the kids could shoot.  Before unpacking the rifle, I got in a discussion with the range coordinator, a nice guy who does Cowboy Action Shooting. The range coordinator advised me that Uberti changed the design of the bolt in the 1873 rifle right around the time my rifle was made, as there were a few cases where factory ammo caused a pin or bracket (please excuse me if I am using the wrong term here) holding the bolt extension to break, sending the bolt rearward into the shooters face.

 

Needless to say, the kids did not shoot the rifle that day.  I then began to research this issue and found some internet stories, none first hand verifying what the Range coordinator advised me of.  I then called Stoeger Technical Support, and they initially said that they had never heard of this issue, but I could email Uberti directly and they might have an answer. I emailed Uberti, and received a translated response advising that "the modification was indeed done in 2007 and this specific rifle was sold in February of 2008".  The email went on to say that this was probably one of the last rifles made with the "old type breech block". Ubert also said that a company in the states called VTI sells parts that will upgrade the rifle to current safety standards.

 

I called VTI and they said they sell this upgrade kit, but advised that a gunsmith should install it for safety. I then called Stoeger to get a price quote to have them install this upgrade kit and they said that they will not do this work as the change in the design of the bolt was not done for safety reasons, that it was done only so that Cowboy Action Shooters could work the action of the rifle a bit quicker. They also told me that it does not matter if I have the old design or the new design because unless I am doing heavy competition, or put something called a short stroke kit (which I do not intend to do) on the rifle, I should be able to shoot a lifetime of factory 357 ammo through it without problem.

 

Being new to this, I am looking for an answer from some knowledgeable folks.  Do I potentially have a rifle with a safety issue? I seem to remember a few years back that Ruger discovered a problem with their single action revolvers and immediately put out a kit to upgrade the revolvers to current safety standards, and if you could not do the upgrade yourself, Ruger would do it if you sent the revolver to them. It would  also seem to me that if this was really an issue of concern with the 1873 rifle that Uberti would do the same thing.  Also, is there a way that I can tell without taking the rifle apart (I know that some companies put a stamp somewhere on a gun when an upgrade has been done) to check if I have the new system or the old one. I don't think that the serial number will work, as I have been told that Uberti does not record modification change over by serial number.  Being stuck in Los Angeles due to work, I don't have a local gunsmith that I can go to for advise on this issue.

 

Thanks

 

 

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They did improve the design, but especially with cowboy (reduced) loads, it is not a problem.  Sometimes the softer steel pin would slightly bend and we would replace it, but I do not know of any major issues with 38 Special level loads - or even 357 Mag loads.

 

The older design used a firing pin stop pin (104) in the bolt (97) as shown below - upper right of picture:

1873_Rifle_Parts_List_Schematic.gif

The later design change to go with a different part (721) that is "fixed" by the link pin, 105.

 

 

https://www.vtigunparts.com/store/images/cats/Uberti_1873Rifleschem.jpg

 

If you have the pin version, you can strengthen it by replacing it with a slightly larger pin - made of a section of standard drill bit (not hardened, but standard)

 

 

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For more information:

http://marauder.homestead.com/Rifles.html

 

Two good sources for parts and work are shown below:

https://www.pioneergunworks.com/technical-info

 

http://cowboysandindianstore.com/

 

 

There are several other great smiths that can slick up your gun as well around the nation.  Just not sure who is left that does it in your area though.  :(

 

But you can ship it out if needed.

Contact your local clubs and discuss this with them further.

https://www.sassnet.com/clubs/Clubs_list.php?state=California

 

 

 

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Ummm, the first diagram's pin that holds the bolt and FPE together would be #104.   The #108 pin holds the extractor in the bolt.

 

I know, small parts, adjacent almost, and the numbers are small too!

 

Good luck, GJ

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The gun was proofed for 357 Mag standard pressure loads. That process actually uses pressure greater than expected. I've never heard of the extension disconnecting and coming back. If the gun is stock the toggles should lock up and that is what prevents the bolt from coming back. As long as someone has not installed a short stroke kit with toggles that are too long, there should be no problem. No doubt that the new bolt has a stronger connection to the extension... so what. It's not in play. We all know that the toggle action is the weakest of the lever guns, but that doesn't make it unsafe if left stock. Kinda reminds me of the supposed dangers of loading BP in a progressive loader or using a powder measure because of static electricity. I've never seen or heard of even one piece of evidence that it has ever happened. Even the world's best reloading equipment makers stick to that line of Baloney when they know it isn't true. Some after market guys capitalized on this phony static idea and sold a lot of "Grounding" kits for loaders. 

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1 hour ago, Snakebite said:

The gun was proofed for 357 Mag standard pressure loads. That process actually uses pressure greater than expected. I've never heard of the extension disconnecting and coming back. If the gun is stock the toggles should lock up and that is what prevents the bolt from coming back. As long as someone has not installed a short stroke kit with toggles that are too long, there should be no problem. No doubt that the new bolt has a stronger connection to the extension... so what. It's not in play. We all know that the toggle action is the weakest of the lever guns, but that doesn't make it unsafe if left stock. Kinda reminds me of the supposed dangers of loading BP in a progressive loader or using a powder measure because of static electricity. I've never seen or heard of even one piece of evidence that it has ever happened. Even the world's best reloading equipment makers stick to that line of Baloney when they know it isn't true. Some after market guys capitalized on this phony static idea and sold a lot of "Grounding" kits for loaders. 

Yes, it did happen.  A friend and I were at my range in NJ back around 2000 or so.  He was shooting a Uberti Henry in 44-40.  He fired a round and the bolt extension came out of the rifle and hit (luckily for him) his shooting glasses.  I specifically remember hearing a normal than louder report when the rifle went off.  We both examined the rifle at the range and the bolt extension was out of the rifle and all other parts were still there.  The extension was of the older type.  The ammo used was reloaded by a manufacturer who has since gone out of business.  There was a lengthy back and forth with the ammo manufacturer and a gunsmith he was friendly with and the end result was my friend was reimbursed to the tune of about $700.  Anecdotally, that was one of the reasons the manufacturer went out of business.  I doubt the problem would have occurred with factory loads or with reloaded ammo that had been loaded to spec.

 

I just spoke with my buddy and he will scrounge around his gun room to see where he put the parts, as he kept them.  If he finds them he will send me a photo.

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I certainly can't and won't dispute your first hand knowledge. If the bolt stayed in place then it must have been inertia that moved the extension back. I just find it very difficult to grasp how there could be enough inertia developed to break the pin and toss the extension back. Without the pushback from the cartridge through a unlocked bolt, I just can not see how it could happen. But I do believe you.

 

Snakebite 

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If it was a Henry, there was no lever safety... firing the gun out of battery might do it since the toggles would not be locked up.

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1 minute ago, Tex Jones, SASS 2263 said:

Doubt that since one of the 'smiths indicated it was an overcharge. 

Help me out here. How would a overcharge make that happen? If the bolt stayed locked up it seems like it would still be only inertia driving the extension back. It would take a lot of inertia to break that pin. Humm? a real puzzle to me. 

 

Snakebite

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I really appreciate the information provided so far. If I understand correctly, Uberti never announced a change-over date for the new bolt set-up by serial number, so the only way to verify if I have a new 1873 rifle bolt design or an old design is by having a knowledgable person (gunsmith) take the rifle apart and examine the part of the bolt that fits onto the extension. It sure seems like Uberti should have sent out a Safety Recall, like Ruger did with the single action revolvers years ago. It seems like most manufacturers send out recalls went they find out about a safety related issue.

 

With Stoeger initially saying they have never heard of the issue regarding the bolt and extension separating and refusing to do the safety parts upgrade, it concerns me a bit.

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4 hours ago, Snakebite said:

Help me out here. How would a overcharge make that happen? If the bolt stayed locked up it seems like it would still be only inertia driving the extension back. It would take a lot of inertia to break that pin. Humm? a real puzzle to me. 

 

Snakebite

Snakebite, the extension came out, which I believe can only result from the pin holding it in shearing.  My buddy is looking for the parts  that he said he kept and I can't be more definitive as the rifle itself was kept by the reloader. 

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12 minutes ago, Newguy said:

I really appreciate the information provided so far. If I understand correctly, Uberti never announced a change-over date for the new bolt set-up by serial number, so the only way to verify if I have a new 1873 rifle bolt design or an old design is by having a knowledgable person (gunsmith) take the rifle apart and examine the part of the bolt that fits onto the extension. It sure seems like Uberti should have sent out a Safety Recall, like Ruger did with the single action revolvers years ago. It seems like most manufacturers send out recalls went they find out about a safety related issue.

 

With Stoeger initially saying they have never heard of the issue regarding the bolt and extension separating and refusing to do the safety parts upgrade, it concerns me a bit.

Hi, Newguy.  Sorry you have this issue.  The example I mentioned occurred with the use of reloaded ammunition, which was, apparently, loaded incorrectly.   I have never heard of that type of issue happening with factory ammunition. 

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The extension will exit the rifle in the manner described IF there is an out of battery discharge. I've had it happen and it was not from an overload of powder. I've never been able to get too much BP in a load. However, a high primer WILL cause an out of battery discharge and a much louder report.

kR

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I'm the person Tex was talking about, let me clear this all up and explain what happened. I had a 44-40 Brass Henry and we were target shooting, not fast cowboy action.I fired one round , levered the gun , so it was NOT out of battery, fired the next round with a louder than normal report. The extension flew out of the rifle and hit me in my glasses. I contacted the ammo company and after a lengthy dispute, we agreed to send the gun to very famous smith who happened to be known to the ammo manufacturer, he obviously disagreed with the overcharge, but agreed to replace the rifle. A conversation I had later on with the smith in the shop who was sending me replacement, told me, don't matter what they claim , this gun was blown apart by an extremely hot load. Based on my experience, there is a possibility the pin can break and some bad things can happen.

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3 hours ago, Zach Taylor,SASS#14359 said:

I'm the person Tex was talking about, let me clear this all up and explain what happened. I had a 44-40 Brass Henry and we were target shooting, not fast cowboy action.I fired one round , levered the gun , so it was NOT out of battery, fired the next round with a louder than normal report. The extension flew out of the rifle and hit me in my glasses. I contacted the ammo company and after a lengthy dispute, we agreed to send the gun to very famous smith who happened to be known to the ammo manufacturer, he obviously disagreed with the overcharge, but agreed to replace the rifle. A conversation I had later on with the smith in the shop who was sending me replacement, told me, don't matter what they claim , this gun was blown apart by an extremely hot load. Based on my experience, there is a possibility the pin can break and some bad things can happen.

 

Can you tell us what powder and maybe what over charge was used?

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Uberti has updated the the firing pin extension attachment to the bolt three times. The First version had the pin, #104 but it was Significantly smaller than the second #104 style  pin version. Those smaller pins and with the early Uberti rifles headspaced to the Black powder era specs. (anything in side of .010 was acceptable) they would shear those smaller pin occasionally, but not frequent until the short stroked gun come about. 

      Once the short stroke caught on and the majority of them back then, (early 2000's) were the cut, bent, welded version, that pin would break more often.  Probably because the toggle links in some of those cut, bent, welded versions never went to full battery. (kinda like your knees, fully locked you can hold up much more weight than slightly bent).  So, about that time Uberti changed to a slightly larger #104 pin. That seemed to help somewhat but the problem did persist. 

 Funny how history repeats it's self. They eventually went to the current version, the #721 which is much like the original Wins were done. The only difference is the originals were also designed to retract the one piece firing pin of the day (no rebound spring back then. )

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19 hours ago, Kid Rich said:

The extension will exit the rifle in the manner described IF there is an out of battery discharge. I've had it happen and it was not from an overload of powder. I've never been able to get too much BP in a load. However, a high primer WILL cause an out of battery discharge and a much louder report.

kR

Way back when I was stupid and removed my  45LC 73"s safety I had a real bad out of  battery discharge, so bad it bent the frame lever and screwed up the trigger and the pin was the small one and there was no damage at all to the pin bolt or anything else! V.D. 

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1 hour ago, Tex Jones, SASS 2263 said:

Never found out. 

 

Too bad!

I tested 12gr of Unique and my result, could be wrong but I doubt it, showed 21,000psi. If a loader used 6gr, this would replicate a double charge equaling 12gr. I never did try Bullseye but a double charge of the max load 7gr...14gr (don't even know if it would fit but I think it would) would probably be disastrous! 

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