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Pump verses semiauto 12 gauge


Trigger Mike

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For years I have been a fan of pump shotguns for home defense.  I recall even Joe biden promoted the idea of how we should all use a shotgun in the home.  

Lately I am seeing semiauto shotguns promoted for home defense.  The downside in my mind is the pump let's you decide if you want to chamber the next round but the semiauto decides it for you.  

 

What are your thoughts?  

 

Which brand do you think is best for a semiauto if you prefer that?  

 

For pump i carried a mossberg 590 in my patrol car and it does well.

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There are, supposedly, two advantages to an automatic.

 

First, if we assume that it is a gas operated automatic (not recoil like an Auto 5), the automatic has less recoil than a pump. This is apparently a very important thing, because for the last 20 years or more they had been making "light recoil" buckshot. We have apparently become too wimpy to take full shotgun recoil.

 

The second one is that if you manage to get an arm damaged, you could still fire your automatic. Hard to pump that there 97 Winchester if you only got one working arm. But I can shoot my Remington 1100 'til the magazine runs dry with one hand.

 

I don't see the gun reloading automatically as being a detriment. There are three bad guys. I shoot one with my pump and then don't chamber another round. I don't need to chamber another round because the two surviving bad guys have immediately raised their hands and started screaming don't shoot don't shoot don't shoot.

 

Or I shoot one with my automatic, and it automatically reloads, and while they're screaming don't shoot don't shoot don't shoot I just put the safety on.

 

For brand I would have to recommend the Remington 1100, because that is the only automatic shotgun I have ever had any experience with. ^_^

 

Having made these points for the automatic, I feel I must also include the fact that the shotgun leaning up against the wall in my bedroom, full of buckshot, is an Ithaca 37 pump. B)

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With a pump there is the danger of short-stroking it under stress, which I've done many times with my Mossberg 500 just casually shooting it at the range. Of course a pump is also less likely to malfunction on its own. Personally I find the recoil too harsh and follow-up shots take too much time, so my home defense long gun is an AR.

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16 minutes ago, Trailrider #896 said:

See my post regarding when Bill Jordon racked his 97 and the drug runner came to a screeching halt and threw both arms up in the air. OTOH, a M1100 can also make a distinctive noise when the slide is released, chambering the first round! :o

 

No intruder will ever here the action of any long gun or handgun cycle in my home.  If He her/she has exceptional hearing they may hear the safety click just before they are shot. ;)

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I live in a two-story house.  If I have an intruder, I'm going to grab whatever's handy.

 

That said, I started shooting and hunting as a kid with a bolt-action .410.  I have several shotguns now, but when I was old enough to buy my own my first "personally selected" shotgun was a Stevens 5100 SxS.  Two rounds, two triggers - it worked fine.  Next came a Beretta autoloader, which has been my go-to hunting shotgun for nearly 50 years.  Love it!

 

One of my other guns is a Model 12.  Winchester, for those few who may not be familiar with this elegant and proven design...

 

I never hunt with the Model 12.  For some odd reason, in the excitement of a group of passing birds, I can never get off a second shot no matter how hard I yank on the trigger.  :huh:

 

"Dad!" my son yells.  "Dad, that's your Winchester!  Ya gotta pump it!"  :lol:

 

Odd.  He's never had an issue with his 16 ga Model 12...  :rolleyes:

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I think the PUMP will give you more control with your followup shots, assuming you fire 2 or more rounds.

 

With the AUTO, you might be a little too excited and your trigger finger might go nuclear and 

climb up the wall, missing your intended target.

 

Other comments that favor the AUTO over the PUMP are also valid.

 

P.S. - they BOTH have a favored place at Fort Widder.

 

..........Widder

 

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'Tis a moot point for me, ...... us minions in the land downunder is not allowed to have neither ........

 

 

 .............. and personal/self defense is NOT a reason to hold a firearms licence (without which you canNOT purchase/possess/hold any firearm) ............. :(

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52 minutes ago, Wallaby Jack, SASS #44062 said:

'Tis a moot point for me, ...... us minions in the land downunder is not allowed to have neither ........

 

 

 .............. and personal/self defense is NOT a reason to hold a firearms licence (without which you canNOT purchase/possess/hold any firearm) ............. :(

 

But you can own a lever action shotgun. They are way more fun than pumps. B)

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To go off on a tangent,  I have an '87 within reach for home defense.  I like the idea of whomever is entering my home hearing the shotgun cycle in the dark.  Their next move should be to leave. 

 

BS

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All the comments are valid as far as they go.  The argument for and against revolver and auto follow the same route.  In my mind a fight in my home will be limited therefore a firearm that I am familiar with is more likely to be useful than one I am not.  Shoot a SxS or 97 every week  maybe that's the best choice.  Shooting a couple of hundred rounds a month with your revolver might make it a better choice than an auto that you can't remember were the safety is or if it has one.  Don't know what the muzzle flash or thunderous muzzle blast is like in a small dark room maybe that little 22 might be a good choice.  Training, using the tools make them effective. 

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5 hours ago, Alpo said:

The second one is that if you manage to get an arm damaged, you could still fire your automatic. Hard to pump that there 97 Winchester if you only got one working arm. But I can shoot my Remington 1100 'til the magazine runs dry with one hand.

 

Edmundo Mirales did a pretty good job of running an 870 one handed in the 1986 FBI shootout in Miami, FL.  Ya just gotta work through the situation.  

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There's a Benelli Nova, a Mossberg 500, a Montgomery Ward 30, a Remington 870 Police, and an ATI Nomad stashed in my house in different rooms.  All pumps, except the little Nomad, which is a single shot.  

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For home defense, I have a semi-auto pistol in a holster at 3 o'clock. I don't go home without it.

 

Shotgun indoors? No thank you. I'll risk hearing damage with a pistol if I needed it indoors, I see no reason to risk hearing loss with a shotgun.

 

I have bears on my property. Momma (Peaches) has 2 cubs this year, and a male roams here and the entire valley. And another momma is on the other side of the valley.

 

This is where shotguns come into play for me. And only if one was rabid (they eat dead rabid raccoons, 20% chance of infection).

 

Basic shotgun for me is a Maverick 88. Shooting bear loads hurt (grapefruit size bruise on my shoulder). But I can take the hit if needed. I do want to upgrade to a Mossburg 930 (aka goose gun) semi-auto. The gas system reduces recoil. Also want it for 3-gun, it is a proven platform in the sport.

 

That said, my 88 has been flawless in competition, the biggest challenge is recoil due to the light weight. If I had to drag it with me for a full day in the woods, it is still a winner. A 500 is a step up (as is the Remington 870); both are heavier.

 

As to Biden's advice... Take your double-barrel shotgun and fire both rounds into the air... :lol: No way! What goes up must come down and I just unloaded my firearm, may as well just carry a baseball bat in that case.

 

Have not fired my bear loads out of my Stoeger, I'm sure it would kick hard. Shot placement wins with two rounds. Have zero rounds through my '87s so have not formed an opinion on those.

 

But a shotgun for defense? Outdoors only in my opinion. Shotgun makes sense for bear, I prefer my AK over an AR for smaller varmints. Again, outdoors.

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4 hours ago, Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967 said:

I live in a two-story house.  If I have an intruder, I'm going to grab whatever's handy.

 

That said, I started shooting and hunting as a kid with a bolt-action .410.  I have several shotguns now, but when I was old enough to buy my own my first "personally selected" shotgun was a Stevens 5100 SxS.  Two rounds, two triggers - it worked fine.  Next came a Beretta autoloader, which has been my go-to hunting shotgun for nearly 50 years.  Love it!

 

One of my other guns is a Model 12.  Winchester, for those few who may not be familiar with this elegant and proven design...

 

I never hunt with the Model 12.  For some odd reason, in the excitement of a group of passing birds, I can never get off a second shot no matter how hard I yank on the trigger.  :huh:

 

"Dad!" my son yells.  "Dad, that's your Winchester!  Ya gotta pump it!"  :lol:

 

Odd.  He's never had an issue with his 16 ga Model 12...  :rolleyes:

 

I was raised on an 870 Wingmaster but later in life thought I had to have an 1100.  I never did get over trying to pump that auto.

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reading through most points are covered , i shoot an older remington 1100 for sporting clays and trap as well as for upland birds in the field , i have a weatherby SA08 set up for three gun that i dont shoot much anymore but its a great shotgun , those are the only semi-autos i have experience with , both have always been great for me , i grew up with pumps and SxS and stand by both in home defense , 

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I heard a 20 gauge go off indoors once. I was half deaf for hours afterwards. 
While the idea of racking a shotgun to scare the crap out of a bad guy is appealing, a good friend scared off two bad guys by racking his empty Remington 870 then grabbing his 1911 only to see them going out the door, I prefer a blinding light and 8 rounds in my Smith & Wesson model 327 Night Guard. 
 

I agree with Sedalia Dave. ;)

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10 hours ago, Trigger Mike said:

For years I have been a fan of pump shotguns for home defense.  I recall even Joe biden promoted the idea of how we should all use a shotgun in the home.  

Lately I am seeing semiauto shotguns promoted for home defense.  The downside in my mind is the pump let's you decide if you want to chamber the next round but the semiauto decides it for you.  

 

What are your thoughts?  

 

Which brand do you think is best for a semiauto if you prefer that?  

 

For pump i carried a mossberg 590 in my patrol car and it does well.

i only owned one semi-auto shotgun, a Browning Sweet Sixteen.  I wish I had kept it, but the only other repeating shotgun I ever liked was a Ithaca Model 37 in 12 gauge.  I had six or seven of them since back when they sold for under a hundred dollars until they went up to about $175.00.   I'd buy one, use it for a couple of seasons, sell it, and when the time came I'd buy another.  About 1980 I couldn't find another new one anywhere and when they came back they had changed.

 

I have a gunsmith friend and a couple of gun dealers looking for one more in really good shape and they are as scarce as an honest politician.  Seems the gun smithing school at Yavapai College a few miles from here used them for years as a project gun for their students.

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9 hours ago, Wallaby Jack, SASS #44062 said:

'Tis a moot point for me, ...... us minions in the land downunder is not allowed to have neither ........

 

 

 .............. and personal/self defense is NOT a reason to hold a firearms licence (without which you canNOT purchase/possess/hold any firearm) ............. :(

Try telling that to the owner of a 9mm pillow gun in this household  !!!!

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There is a Model 12 Winchester at one end of the house but my main one is a Remington 870 I rebuilt. Carried one for 26 years on duty and know the location of everything even if just woke up at O'Dark Thirty. Partial to #4 Buck myself, I have seen what it does and it will go through less drywall. I would say familiarity of running the gun and knowing it is 100% reliable are the two key things, pump, auto or SxS even.

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I've got handguns planted inside my house here and there but in the basement I have a double barreled 20 gauge and a box of shells nearby.

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45 minutes ago, DeaconKC said:

There is a Model 12 Winchester at one end of the house but my main one is a Remington 870 I rebuilt. Carried one for 26 years on duty and know the location of everything even if just woke up at O'Dark Thirty. Partial to #4 Buck myself, I have seen what it does and it will go through less drywall. I would say familiarity of running the gun and knowing it is 100% reliable are the two key things, pump, auto or SxS even.

I, too, am partial to#4 buck.  2 3/4" standard loads work well enough inside my house and at most other combat ranges.

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Pump gun here . Rem 870 20" barrel  8 shot tube and 14 more in side carriers 

I think the sound of racking a shell in the chamber make most punks think twice about where they are 

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Back in the late 1990's I used to shoot a lot of bowling pin matches at a local club and two classes were Pump shotguns and Semi Auto shotguns.  It got to the point where we had to use a shot timer to record the times.  With five pins at about 15 yards using buckshot, the best semi-auto times were running around 1.90 - 1.93 seconds.  These times were usually with a recoil or inertia operated action, Benelli's and the Beretta 1201 FP were the most popular choices.  I don't remember anyone running a Remington 1100 or 11-87 or any other gas operated gun breaking the 2 second mark.  I think my best time with a pump was about 3.5 seconds using a 97.  I heard one young shooter managed to get below 3 seconds with a pump gun.  

 

The semi auto shotguns with recoil or inertia operated actions could be finicky with anything other than full powered ammo and for me, I found it hard to keep the muzzle from climbing by the third shot.

 

The pump shotguns would run just about any ammo with the exception of the very short 1 3/4 Aguila mini shells, some guns would run them, some wouldn't.  

 

 

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I have an 870 Wingmaster with the police extended magazine... for bears and bad guys.
If it is used in a defense situation, it will be outdoors when ANTIFA/BLM comes calling.

#1 buckshot is 647 grains of lead, with a 50 lb recoil akin to a full house 45-70 load.
These are brutal on the shoulder in the 870, even worse in my cowboy SxS with metal butt plate.

I shoot trap with a Remington V3, which is reputed to be one of the softest shooting semis.
Winchester AA will not cycle this action.
I would not even think of using the V3 in a defense situation.

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19 minutes ago, bgavin said:

I have an 870 Wingmaster with the police extended magazine... for bears and bad guys.
If it is used in a defense situation, it will be outdoors when ANTIFA/BLM comes calling.

#1 buckshot is 647 grains of lead, with a 50 lb recoil akin to a full house 45-70 load.
These are brutal on the shoulder in the 870, even worse in my cowboy SxS with metal butt plate.

I shoot trap with a Remington V3, which is reputed to be one of the softest shooting semis.
Winchester AA will not cycle this action.
I would not even think of using the V3 in a defense situation.

The 1100 pictured above likes #1 Buck.  It patterns it more consistently than the 00.  That's the Remington 2 3/4" 16 ball load in the picture on the side saddle and the 2 shell carrier in the butt stock.  The other one on the right side has 2 Remington 1oz slugs in it on the off chance that I need to shoot through something.  Currently,  it's stoked with the same buck load from Winchester and it's zeroed to 75 yards (because 50 is too close and 100 is too far) with the Remington slugs.

 

Federal makes/made a 20 plated ball #1Buck but I find it only rarely.

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I'll go with a pump, a 1897 pump to be exact, with #4's. It will be difficult to keep my finger off the trigger as I slam fire it in CAS but not impossible. 

 

I don't and have never understood having a self defense firearm in such a condition that it does not have a round in the chamber or is in a condition not ready to fire. I can't remember how many times I've heard the whole "racking the pump shotgun for audible effect" statement. To me, it's a dangerous tactic. It's not ready for immediate deployment, you've given away your position, you've one less round to use and there are some criminals who are desperate (or stoned) enough that they will continue with their illegal activities. 

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10 minutes ago, Cypress Sun said:

. I can't remember how many times I've heard the whole "racking the pump shotgun for audible effect" statement. To me, it's a dangerous tactic. It's not ready for immediate deployment, you've given away your position, you've one less round to use and there are some criminals who are desperate (or stoned) enough that they will continue with their illegal activities. 

I store the 1100 Condition 3 just to make it harder for curious hands from shooting it.  (No kids in the house, it's concealed out of sight but that won't stop the great nephew from opening the closet door and seeing it if he comes to visit.)

 

There's also a top off round on a shelf beside the gun.  (A couple, in fact, since I wouldn't be surprised that I drop at least one between hurrying and adrenaline).

 

On the few times that I've felt the need to pull it out of the closet, I work the bolt immediately and top it off as I start walking towards the door.  If it's come down to me pulling out the shotgun, the time for the whole 'let's scare them' thing has passed.  Stuff has gotten too serious by that time for playing mind games.

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When ANTIFA/BLM comes to your church, home or business, you have two choices:

• Stand Aside
• Stand Up


If you Stand Aside, ANTIFA and BLM will drag you out of your vehicle and destroy it, then beat you and burn your house or business.

If you Stand Up and defend yourself, the State will bankrupt you and send you to prison.

 

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3 hours ago, bgavin said:

When ANTIFA/BLM comes to your church, home or business, you have two choices:

• Stand Aside
• Stand Up


If you Stand Aside, ANTIFA and BLM will drag you out of your vehicle and destroy it, then beat you and burn your house or business.

If you Stand Up and defend yourself, the State will bankrupt you and send you to prison.

 

I thank God I no longer live in that communist-borne state.

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17 minutes ago, Forty Rod SASS 3935 said:

I thank God I no longer live in that communist-borne state.

Antifa/blm is certainly not limited to one state. I have a Remington Versamax that's be completely reliable even with target ammo. 

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