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Tennessee williams

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Imagine, if you will, that the launched target went straight up in the air and stopped at its apex. In this scenario this aerial target will pause there until the next shot is fired. If you have a fail to fire the target will just hang there beckoning you to destroy it. If you shoot, the target it will fall to the ground unbroken. NOW you have a missed target! Now you can engage the makeup target to erase the miss. If you shoot the makeup target prior to engaging the aerial target you will have engaged the targets out of order.

 

Back to real life. Many "gamer shooters" will simply shoot downrange and not attempt to engage the aerial as intended.  And then shoot the makeup target. Stage Writers/Match Directors should remind the shooters prior to engaging the stage that this really is a Spirit of the Game penalty of the first order.

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48 minutes ago, Griff said:

I think you're miss-interpreting PWB's, interpretation.   In a case where the shooter never attempted to fire at the flyer, yes, fire away,   But, in the scenario presented, the shooter had already engaged the target.  Follow the miss-flow chart.   Did the shooter engage the targets in the correct order?  The answer is "yes" to both scenarios.  No "P".  Did the shooter hit all the targets with the appropriate firearm?  "No", in both scenarios.  Did the shooter fire the required number of rounds?   In the 1st scenario, "yes", 4.  He'd already engaged it, I see no need to fire a 5th round.

No, PWB said engaging it was not enough. 5 rounds had to go down range.

Quote

 

In the second scenario, you could argue that a 6th round was needed to satisfy the round count.  But, did the instructions state "6 - shotgun"?  But, where does he shoot?  Any shotgun target earns the shooter a "P".  

If engaging doesn't count, and the shooter does not have the same options with the shotgun they have with the pistol and rifle then they have already earned the p by not hitting the correct target in the correct order.

52 minutes ago, Griff said:

 

Quote

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

Imagine, if you will, that the launched target went straight up in the air and stopped at its apex. In this scenario this aerial target will pause there until the next shot is fired. If you have a fail to fire the target will just hang there beckoning you to destroy it. If you shoot, the target it will fall to the ground unbroken. NOW you have a missed target! Now you can engage the makeup target to erase the miss. If you shoot the makeup target prior to engaging the aerial target you will have engaged the targets out of order.

Following the definition of engaged, the targets were engaged in the correct order.

7 minutes ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

 

Back to real life. Many "gamer shooters" will simply shoot downrange and not attempt to engage the aerial as intended.  And the shoot the makeup target. Stage Writers/Match Directors should remind the shooters prior to engaging the stage that this really is a Spirit of the Game penalty of the first order.

I agree and it should be called! But, to me that ain't being a gamer, its cheatin'.

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16 hours ago, Santa Fe River Stan,36999L said:

 

So you give out misses and P's for jacked out rifle rounds that are not reloaded? misses and P's for pistol rounds that don't fire?

 

Those are only misses....the same with the shotgun......

 

Stan

see TW post above yours. different rules for different firearms.

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12 minutes ago, Ranger Dan said:

see TW post above yours. different rules for different firearms.

When it comes to handing out P's....there is not a different rule for the shotgun. Unless of course you can tell me what page to find it in the SHB.

 

Not firing the correct number of rounds is not a P in and of itself.....unfired rounds are misses.

 

Stan

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35 minutes ago, Santa Fe River Stan,36999L said:

When it comes to handing out P's....there is not a different rule for the shotgun. Unless of course you can tell me what page to find it in the SHB.

 

Not firing the correct number of rounds is not a P in and of itself.....unfired rounds are misses.

 

Stan

Do you count how many unfired shotgun rounds are in your belt after every stage and count them as misses? Of course not. As PWB points out, rifle and pistols are loaded with a specific number of rounds, you may reload an unfired or jacked out round, not for a missed fired round. Opposite for shotgun, you can reload for a missed fired round, hence the 4+, 4 being the minimum to knock down 4 targets. If you only fire 3 you did not engage with the correct number of rounds to complete the stage.

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15 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

I agree and it should be called! But, to me that ain't being a gamer, its cheatin'.

 

I must be very lucky indeed.  In 21 years in the game I have never come across somebody who "cheated".  The fast shooters I've had the pleasure to posse with have played by the "Spirit of the Game."  I don't know any "gamers", (as has been bandied about here), who intentionally did not engage a target to gain a competitive advantage.  Too often, I hear the "gamer" label applied to a skilled, fast shooter, as if they cheated by practicing and/or having the athletic ability to move quickly.

As I said, I have been very fortunate.

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43 minutes ago, Ranger Dan said:

Do you count how many unfired shotgun rounds are in your belt after every stage and count them as misses? Of course not. As PWB points out, rifle and pistols are loaded with a specific number of rounds, you may reload an unfired or jacked out round, not for a missed fired round. Opposite for shotgun, you can reload for a missed fired round, hence the 4+, 4 being the minimum to knock down 4 targets. If you only fire 3 you did not engage with the correct number of rounds to complete the stage.

 

 

So I walk to the line with 3 shotgun rounds on my body.....the stage calls for 4+......I knockdown 3 of the 4 shotgun targets.

 

Are you going to give me a P and a Miss?

 

Stan

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6 minutes ago, Santa Fe River Stan,36999L said:

 

 

So I walk to the line with 3 shotgun rounds on my body.....the stage calls for 4+......I knockdown 3 of the 4 shotgun targets.

 

Are you going to give me a P and a Miss?

 

Stan

No, miss can't cause a P... Now if you knocked down all 4 with those 3 rounds, then no miss. P cuz you didn't use the correct number of rounds.

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An unfired round is a miss, nothing about a P if all 4 targets are down. 3 shots fired, 4 shots called for, 1 miss.

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1 minute ago, Ranger Dan said:

No, miss can't cause a P... Now if you knocked down all 4 with those 3 rounds, then no miss. P cuz you didn't use the correct number of rounds.

 

1 minute ago, Tn Tombstone said:

An unfired round is a miss, nothing about a P if all 4 targets are down. 3 shots fired, 4 shots called for, 1 miss.

 

SHB pg 22

Quote

5-SECOND PENALTIES

Misses are 5-Second penalties.  Revolver, rifle, and shotgun targets must be engaged with the appropriate type of firearm.  A MISS is defined as the failure to hit the appropriate target type using the appropriate type of firearm and includes:

- Each unfired round. 

 

 

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The way it has been explained to me is in the Miss Flow Chart the statement "Did the shooter engage the targets in the correct order" should include "With the correct number of rounds". With shotgun KD targets to be engaged in no specific order when all the targets have gone down, you cannot call a miss because they are down. This points to a Procedural.

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3 hours ago, McCandless said:

 

I must be very lucky indeed.  In 21 years in the game I have never come across somebody who "cheated".  The fast shooters I've had the pleasure to posse with have played by the "Spirit of the Game."  I don't know any "gamers", (as has been bandied about here), who intentionally did not engage a target to gain a competitive advantage.  Too often, I hear the "gamer" label applied to a skilled, fast shooter, as if they cheated by practicing and/or having the athletic ability to move quickly.

As I said, I have been very fortunate.

I'm right there with you. I've never seen it either. If that's happening and is the reason for the shotgun to be excluded from the shooters' choice, we need to rethink things. Shotgun should be included and the book should be thrown at someone cheating by not engaging a flier to just hit the makeup. Shouldnt have to have a different set of rules, just follow the ones we have. No reason for someone that engaged the bird to have to expend a round downrange before shooting the makeup. Thats why I posed this fictitious wtc. Shooter in my scenario "engaged" a stationary Shotgun target and went on to the next. Following the "engagement doesn't matter" logic of the shotgun not having the same options as pistol and rifle dud rounds the shooter SHOULD receive a p for shooting the targets out of order. Don't get me wrong, I don't think either should get a p, or an extra round expended in the flier scenario.

My bottom line is in my opinion the shooter should have the same options with shotgun as the rifle and pistol.

If nothing else it will avoid confusion and some shooters getting the correct call and a whole lot not getting the correct call.

 

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1 hour ago, Ranger Dan said:

The way it has been explained to me is in the Miss Flow Chart the statement "Did the shooter engage the targets in the correct order" should include "With the correct number of rounds". With shotgun KD targets to be engaged in no specific order when all the targets have gone down, you cannot call a miss because they are down. This points to a Procedural.

Whoever explained that to you was mistaken.....if those words need to be included then they would be there.

 

Stan

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5 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

5-SECOND PENALTIES

Misses are 5-Second penalties.  Revolver, rifle, and shotgun targets must be engaged with the appropriate type of firearm.  A MISS is defined as the failure to hit the appropriate target type using the appropriate type of firearm and includes:

- Each unfired round. 

 

6 hours ago, Ranger Dan said:

No, miss can't cause a P... Now if you knocked down all 4 with those 3 rounds, then no miss. P cuz you didn't use the correct number of rounds.

 

Ranger Dan, there is no "P" in this case,  I underlined the correct answer above in the reply from Branchwater Jack. The scenario called for 4+ rounds, even though the targets are down after 3 if the 4th round isn't fired it is a 5-Second Penalty for an unfired round.

 

IMHO

Randy

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12 minutes ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

 

 

Ranger Dan, there is no "P" in this case,  I underlined the correct answer above in the reply from Branchwater Jack. The scenario called for 4+ rounds, even though the targets are down after 3 if the 4th round isn't fired it is a 5-Second Penalty for an unfired round.

 

IMHO

Randy

It takes me less than 5 seconds to shoot that 4th round at the berm. All targets down, and the correct number of rounds fired. No penalty?

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18 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

It takes me less than 5 seconds to shoot that 4th round at the berm. All targets down, and the correct number of rounds fired. No penalty?

You are correct, no penalty in that case. 

 

Randy

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2 hours ago, John Kloehr said:

It takes me less than 5 seconds to shoot that 4th round at the berm. All targets down, and the correct number of rounds fired. No penalty?

Correct but you'd also have to shoot the makeup target to not get that miss.

Kind of my point. You have to expend a round down range not just engage the flier. Stands to reason in a scenario where you have 4 sg targets that have to be shot in a specific order and you have a dud round you can't just skip it and go on to the next target and make it up at the end(if its a makeup). Whats the penalty for shooting the targets out of order? A p.

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12 hours ago, Santa Fe River Stan,36999L said:

I'm going to make the call based on the verbiage in the Shooter's Handbook unless someone can show me a passage I haven't seen that says "Shotgun rounds must be fired to qualify as engaged".

 

Stan

I can't argue against that. Do we go solely by the SHB or also by the clarifications? Screenshot_20201102-110857_Chrome.thumb.jpg.5d0bc82cec4614db49438b7cc2e4a5e2.jpg

According to this clarification, the shooters' choice makes no mention of the shotgun as being included. I personally think it should. But, it is not as of yet. It looks to me like almost everybody, me included have just assumed the shotgun was included in that list of options. I would put forth, it should be. As I've laid out, that particular verbiage being left out makes a big impact on a shoot as you know. It makes an even larger impact when only a small percentage know it's left out. Different rules followed by different possies it what it amounts to. I do agree also with it being very difficult to hunt for clarifications.

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From our published stage conventions at our club.

 

Shotgun knockdown targets that fall on their own accord or by any manner other than a round striking them must be engaged where they were . Failure to shoot where they were will result in a miss. Stage instructions may override.

 

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Regarding the original thread with the two "popper/flyer" targets + a "makeup" target:
 
Quote

Targets that are activated by another target or prop (especially aerial shotgun targets) can be the source of varied interpretations and therefore require special instructions within the stage description to avoid problems.

RO2 p.4 "POOR STAGE DESIGN ELEMENTS"
 
Example:

START:  At Pos 3 with shotgun in hand. 

When ready say: “...”  

AT THE BUZZER: Pos 3: Shoot the faller S1 & flier – if you miss the flier make up on S2 (3rdshot).  

You must shoot at the flyer even if you fumble the reload or take 2 shots to knock down the faller. 

 
This instruction (i.e. the shot for the flyer MUST be fired) has been SOP for almost every stage I've encountered in which a "makeup" target is provided for any misses on the flyer(s).
In this example, "engaging" ("attempt to fire a round") is irrelevant...it does NOT count as a miss for the "unfired round" that can be made up by hitting the makeup target. 
Since the shotgun is not "pre-loaded" at the LT (as are rifles & revolvers), but loaded as needed during the stage engagement, the "Shooter's Choice" options for ejected/misfired rounds does not apply.
That document primarily addresses rifle and revolver scenarios.

That is the reason I called a MISS in this scenario:
https://forums.sassnet.com/index.php?/topic/307885-wtc/
 

"Shotgun instructions are for 4 + shots.

Targets are popper targets. Shooter is to shoot a knockdown that throws a clay into the air. Two targets. Any missed birds can be made up on stationary target. 

Shooter knockdowns first popper and hits bird. Then shoots second knockdown but next shot does not fire. Shooter reloads two shells and shoots stationary target. (* with one round)

* (initially in the discussion, it was assumed that the OP had fired BOTH reloaded rounds at the makeup = NO CALL)

Later in the discussion, the OP stated that he had only fired 4 shots total.)

1. Knockdown.

2. Flyer. 

3. Knockdown.  

4. Makeup target."

 

In that case, the call would be a miss. The 4th shot missed the flyer (No "P" for "engaging out of order")...shooter still needed to fire a 5th shot on the makeup to negate that miss).

 

 

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Let me stir a bit. The fact that there are 6 shotgun targeets doen not mean the 6th target is a "make up". In this case the scenerio calls for 6 targets to be shot with no make up. WTC? I dunno. That's why you won't see me volunteer to take the timer.

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On 11/2/2020 at 7:45 AM, Tennessee williams said:

  Shotgun portion of stage has 6 stationary targets and scenario is this:

At the beep shoot all stationary Shotgun targets in a single tap sweep from the left beginning on target 1. No makeups.

 

Shooter loads 2 in their double and shoots targets 1 and 2, shooter loads 2 more in their double and shoots target 3 and tries to shoot target 4 but the shell fails to fire, shooter loads 2 more in their double and shoots targets 5 and 6.

 

In this scenario, "no makeups" means that a target engaged and missed with a fired round may not be re-engaged...same as for a rifle/revolver sweep.

The number of shotgun rounds to complete the shooting string is fixed at SIX.

The "unfired round" is "scored as" a MISS.

 

The "engagement" of target #4 with a misfired round followed by engagement of #5 = a MISS w/no "P".
Shooter had the option to RE-engage #4 after the misfire (same as with a rifle/revolver) and complete the string (6 shots fired/all targets hit = NO CALL).

Reloading to replace a misfired round is not considered a "makeup" in this case.

 

 

 

 

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16 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:
Regarding the original thread with the two "popper/flyer" targets + a "makeup" target:
 
RO2 p.4 "POOR STAGE DESIGN ELEMENTS"
 
Example:

START:  At Pos 3 with shotgun in hand. 

When ready say: “...”  

AT THE BUZZER: Pos 3: Shoot the faller S1 & flier – if you miss the flier make up on S2 (3rdshot).  

You must shoot at the flyer even if you fumble the reload or take 2 shots to knock down the faller. 

 
This instruction (i.e. the shot for the flyer MUST be fired) has been SOP for almost every stage I've encountered in which a "makeup" target is provided for any misses on the flyer(s).
In this example, "engaging" ("attempt to fire a round") is irrelevant...it does NOT count as a miss for the "unfired round" that can be made up by hitting the makeup target. 
Since the shotgun is not "pre-loaded" at the LT (as are rifles & revolvers), but loaded as needed during the stage engagement, the "Shooter's Choice" options for ejected/misfired rounds does not apply.
That document primarily addresses rifle and revolver scenarios.

That is the reason I called a MISS in this scenario:
https://forums.sassnet.com/index.php?/topic/307885-wtc/
 

"Shotgun instructions are for 4 + shots.

Targets are popper targets. Shooter is to shoot a knockdown that throws a clay into the air. Two targets. Any missed birds can be made up on stationary target. 

Shooter knockdowns first popper and hits bird. Then shoots second knockdown but next shot does not fire. Shooter reloads two shells and shoots stationary target. (* with one round)

* (initially in the discussion, it was assumed that the OP had fired BOTH reloaded rounds at the makeup = NO CALL)

Later in the discussion, the OP stated that he had only fired 4 shots total.)

1. Knockdown.

2. Flyer. 

3. Knockdown.  

4. Makeup target."

 In that case, the call would be a miss. The 4th shot missed the flyer (No "P" for "engaging out of order")...shooter still needed to fire a 5th shot on the makeup to negate that miss).

I beg to differ.  In the scenario with two poppers that activate a flyer each, with no order... if the shooter engages flyer 2, but has a dud round, by the time s/he can reload there is no target to fire that round at, (except, In this case, the makeup target).  Stage instructions have been met, all four targets have  been engaged, meeting that portion of the requirements of the scenario, but four shots had not, but with one previously undamaged flyer on the ground... requires a shot at the makeup target on meet the fired rounds of 4 minimum, and allowing the makeup shot.    Any other interpretation negates the validity of having "engaged" that flyer with a dud round.  I'm simply following the rules as set forth in the SHB & as applied in the Miss/Flow Chart.   Had the instructions said "5+ if the makeup target is used," I'd agree.   (I've probably argued this from the other side some time in the past, so carry on)...  

7 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

In this scenario, "no makeups" means that a target engaged and missed with a fired round may not be re-engaged...same as for a rifle/revolver sweep.

The number of shotgun rounds to complete the shooting string is fixed at SIX.

The "unfired round" is "scored as" a MISS.

 

The "engagement" of target #4 with a misfired round followed by engagement of #5 = a MISS w/no "P".
Shooter had the option to RE-engage #4 after the misfire (same as with a rifle/revolver) and complete the string (6 shots fired/all targets hit = NO CALL).

Reloading to replace a misfired round is not considered a "makeup" in this case.

In this scenario, the only way to avoid a miss or a "P" is to fire 6 shots in target order to meet the requirement of a sweep from left to right.  A dud round on target 4, requires the next fired shot be at number four... Having "engaged" it on the dud (4th round), it has to be re-engaged and knocked down, (or hit if stationary) with the next shot in order to continue the sweep.  Skipping #4 and shooting #5 next would earn the shooter the 5 second penalty for a round not fired, or a "P" if the shooter goes back after hits on #s 5 & 6.  The only way to clean this stage is to hit all 6 targets, in order. 

 

I think we're in agreement here... but, I could be wrong.  A "miss-fire" could include a round with a primer only detonation, and shot dribbles out the barrel... although it had no chance of hitting the target, it is a "fired" round.  No opportunity to re-engage.  Continue to fire on target #5, if other barrel is clear.    

 

 

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On 11/6/2020 at 11:04 PM, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:
Regarding the original thread with the two "popper/flyer" targets + a "makeup" target:
 
RO2 p.4 "POOR STAGE DESIGN ELEMENTS"
 
Example:

START:  At Pos 3 with shotgun in hand. 

When ready say: “...”  

AT THE BUZZER: Pos 3: Shoot the faller S1 & flier – if you miss the flier make up on S2 (3rdshot).  

You must shoot at the flyer even if you fumble the reload or take 2 shots to knock down the faller. 

 
This instruction (i.e. the shot for the flyer MUST be fired) has been SOP for almost every stage I've encountered in which a "makeup" target is provided for any misses on the flyer(s).
In this example, "engaging" ("attempt to fire a round") is irrelevant...it does NOT count as a miss for the "unfired round" that can be made up by hitting the makeup target. 
Since the shotgun is not "pre-loaded" at the LT (as are rifles & revolvers), but loaded as needed during the stage engagement, the "Shooter's Choice" options for ejected/misfired rounds does not apply.
That document primarily addresses rifle and revolver scenarios.

That is the reason I called a MISS in this scenario:
https://forums.sassnet.com/index.php?/topic/307885-wtc/
 

"Shotgun instructions are for 4 + shots.

Targets are popper targets. Shooter is to shoot a knockdown that throws a clay into the air. Two targets. Any missed birds can be made up on stationary target. 

Shooter knockdowns first popper and hits bird. Then shoots second knockdown but next shot does not fire. Shooter reloads two shells and shoots stationary target. (* with one round)

* (initially in the discussion, it was assumed that the OP had fired BOTH reloaded rounds at the makeup = NO CALL)

Later in the discussion, the OP stated that he had only fired 4 shots total.)

1. Knockdown.

2. Flyer. 

3. Knockdown.  

4. Makeup target."

 

In that case, the call would be a miss. The 4th shot missed the flyer (No "P" for "engaging out of order")...shooter still needed to fire a 5th shot on the makeup to negate that miss).

 

 

Ok.....what is the call IF the stage instructions do NOT include the phrase "the shot for the flyer MUST be fired"?

 

I have seen that phrase left out....including at major matches.

 

Stan

 

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1 hour ago, Santa Fe River Stan,36999L said:

Ok.....what is the call IF the stage instructions do NOT include the phrase "the shot for the flyer MUST be fired"?

 

I have seen that phrase left out....including at major matches.

 

Stan

 

I have also seen this left out many times but, at least at our club, I try to make sure it is announced on the stage. 

 

Randy

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1 hour ago, Santa Fe River Stan,36999L said:

Ok.....what is the call IF the stage instructions do NOT include the phrase "the shot for the flyer MUST be fired"?

 

I have seen that phrase left out....including at major matches.

 

Stan

 

You end up with two multi-page "WtC?" threads on the SASS Wire discussing the various interpretations of a "Poor Stage Design Element" that is specifically addressed in the RO2 Course:

Quote

 

"Targets that are activated by another target or prop (especially aerial shotgun targets) can be the source of varied interpretations and therefore require special instructions within the stage description to avoid problems."

 

RO2 p.4 "POOR STAGE DESIGN ELEMENTS"

 

My position regarding the call in the absence of any "special instructions" (or Match/Range Convention) is to invoke the most commonly applied instruction (written or verbal) utilized in such cases.
 

Another similar example:
Two sets of "popper/flyer" shotgun targets with a stationary makeup target for any missed flyers.
Shooter (using a SxS) fires two rounds, KDing both poppers & launching both flyers simultaneously..

Shooter fumbles the reload (attempt to fire?) and the flyers hit the ground (no longer available to hit) 

Shooter completes the reload and double-taps the makeup target.

WtC?
Clean?
Two misses?
Procedural?
Two misses and a "P"?
Two misses, a "P", and a "SOG"

 


 

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Still a lot of murky water to me.

*Does the shooter have the same options with the shotgun that they have with the rifle and pistol as far as shot engagement, Jack outs, and dud rounds? The shotgun IS NOT MENTIONED in the shooters' choice clarification. The previous wtc says they do not have the same options. Different rules for different firearm types. 

*In the event special instructions are not used for the stage writing such as "if the bird is missed, engage the makeup target" how do we know the most used rule? Personally I have never seen those exact words, I have seen "the bird may be made up with the make up target". It gets even murkier when you take into consideration unfired rounds are scored as misses.

To me, it just makes sense to include the shotgun with the shooters choice options. It simplifies both WTC scenarios. If the stage writer has to have a round go down range for the bird, its easy enough for them to say that in their instructions. We can't guess. We have to be able to point to the SHB and say here it is. 

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To add to TWs Murkiness, if an unfired shotgun round is a miss if you only fire 3 in a 4+ string, all targets hit. Then in the scenario where the flyer is missed by an unfired round (misfire, dud whatever you want to call it), would not the next shot be legal on the makeup target?

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8 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

You end up with two multi-page "WtC?" threads on the SASS Wire

Just quoting and replying because one HaHa was not enough!

 

Here is another for you: :lol:

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8 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

You end up with two multi-page "WtC?" threads on the SASS Wire discussing the various interpretations of a "Poor Stage Design Element" that is specifically addressed in the RO2 Course:

RO2 p.4 "POOR STAGE DESIGN ELEMENTS"

 

My position regarding the call in the absence of any "special instructions" (or Match/Range Convention) is to invoke the most commonly applied instruction (written or verbal) utilized in such cases.
 

Another similar example:
Two sets of "popper/flyer" shotgun targets with a stationary makeup target for any missed flyers.
Shooter (using a SxS) fires two rounds, KDing both poppers & launching both flyers simultaneously..

Shooter fumbles the reload (attempt to fire?) and the flyers hit the ground (no longer available to hit) 

Shooter completes the reload and double-taps the makeup target.

WtC?
Clean?
Two misses?
Procedural?
Two misses and a "P"?
Two misses, a "P", and a "SOG"

 


 

Two misses, a "P", and a "SOG"

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9 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

Another similar example:
Two sets of "popper/flyer" shotgun targets with a stationary makeup target for any missed flyers.
Shooter (using a SxS) fires two rounds, KDing both poppers & launching both flyers simultaneously..

Shooter fumbles the reload (attempt to fire?) and the flyers hit the ground (no longer available to hit) 

Shooter completes the reload and double-taps the makeup target.

WtC?
Clean?
Two misses?
Procedural?
Two misses and a "P"?
Two misses, a "P", and a "SOG"

 


 

Assuming the instruction was popper, flyer, popper, flyer.

 

And allowing the hint for makeup target to include plural... And from what I got earlier, and a necessary :lol:

 

Shoots first popper. Flyer released. Not engaged. Instead, shooter shoots:

 

Second popper (P as second round should have been on first flyer, should have put the second round into the berm at least). But not a miss because no two penalties for a single event. Leaves me with a P because the second shot is on the:

 

Second popper followed by a fumbled reload which is why the flyer hits the ground.

 

Shoot makeup target twice... But makeup is only for rounds fired at the flyers, which were not fired! So no benefit. No makeup points. It is simply a miss on the second flyer.

 

Since no benefit, no SOG penalty.

 

So a P and a miss.. Wait a minute, that was not one of your options!

 

I really need to take the RO class.

 

I'll make it worse. Shooter shoots only one round and hits both poppers... Both flyers are released. Should the second round fired be on the first or the second popper? Remember, the shooter is shooting a SxS so the next step is to reload. What is the best strategy to minimize penalties without a SOG infraction?

 

Is there a strategy which would reduce score except it does result in a SOG?

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