WTC

[Sedalia Dave]

12 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

Another similar example:
Two sets of "popper/flyer" shotgun targets with a stationary makeup target for any missed flyers.
Shooter (using a SxS) fires two rounds, KDing both poppers & launching both flyers simultaneously..

Shooter fumbles the reload (attempt to fire?) and the flyers hit the ground (no longer available to hit) 

Shooter completes the reload and double-taps the makeup target.

WtC?
Clean?
Two misses?
Procedural?
Two misses and a "P"?
Two misses, a "P", and a "SOG"

 

Up to a point this is easy no matter if you use PWB's stage convention or the one many of us would have used prior to this thread.

 

At a minimum the shooter has earned a P and 2 misses.  We'll get to the SOG later

 

Now for the rational

 

Shooter fires shots 1 and 2 of the required 4+ shots and hits the two KDs knocking them down. So far so good.

 

Shooter reloads fires shots 3 and 4 engaging the flyers as per stage instructions.

 

Up to this point the shooter has fired 4 rounds and in doing so knocked down the two KDs and engaged the two flyers. Which target was hit in which order is irrelevant. That two shots happened to hit the swinger is irrelevant.  You do not assume shooters intent at this point of the stage. All stage requirements have been met up to this point

 

However, because shooter missed both flyers the stage instructions require the shooter to engage the swinger twice. Once for each target missed. This brings the total number of required engagements to a total of 6+

Per stage instructions the shooter must engage the swinger twice. For those two engagements not to count as misses, the swinger must be hit each time. However in this case the shooter failed to engage the swinger and in doing so the shooter has earned a P. 

 

In order to not earn a miss on the swinger, the shooter has to hit. Because no rounds hit the swinger at the time it was required per stage instructions the shooter has earned two misses. The swinger was not in play until the shooter completed the first half of the stage instructions and missed the flyers. So the two rounds that happened to hit earlier don't count.

 

Now we come to the tricky part. and this is where the TO needs to be on his or her game. Because the shooter fumbled loading rounds 3 and 4 they added extra time to the clock. As the TO sees the shooter failing to engage the swinger they  should coach the shooter by saying  "2 more" before the shooter transitions to the next gun or if the SG is last, proceeds to leave the firing line.

In either case the TO I should be able to tell by body language if the shooter didn't come back because they are trying to get back valuable time. At that point the TO can considering awarding a SOG.

 

Before the TO awards a SOG to the shooter, the TO should immediately question the shooter as to why they failed to return and fire the last two shots. This is the best time to get an unprepared answer. Depending on the shooters answers and body language they can decide if awarding a SOG is warranted. If the TO believes a SOG should be awarded they should now confer with the MD and come to a consensus on whether or not the shooter has earned a SOG in addition to the P and 2 misses.

 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Consider this:

 

Shooter gets 2 misses for "failure to HIT" the 2 flyers (hitting the makeup target with shots #3 & #4 are simply FIRED ROUNDS that missed the 2 flyers).

Shooter is NOT REQUIRED to fire the "makeup" shots; he has the OPTION to accept those 2 misses and move on.
Shooter must hit the makeup target two more times (6 rounds total fired) to negate the 2 flyer misses...but it is NOT mandatory to do so.

 

??

 

 

 

[John Kloehr]

I can't see a SOG in this one. whether a miss and a P. or two misses, either is worse than not at least attempting makeups.

 

No unfair competitive advantage, no SOG.

[Sedalia Dave]

6 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

Consider this:

 

Shooter gets 2 misses for "failure to HIT" the 2 flyers (hitting the makeup target with shots #3 & #4 are simply FIRED ROUNDS that missed the 2 flyers).

Shooter is NOT REQUIRED to fire the "makeup" shots; he has the OPTION to accept those 2 misses and move on.
Shooter must hit the makeup target two more times (6 rounds total fired) to negate the 2 flyer misses...but it is NOT mandatory to do so.

 

??

 

 

 

 

Everything would depend on how the stage instructions are worded. Which comes back to your point of good stage writing.

 

 

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

On 11/9/2020 at 8:46 AM, Santa Fe River Stan,36999L said:

Ok.....what is the call IF the stage instructions do NOT include the phrase "the shot for the flyer MUST be fired"?

 

I have seen that phrase left out....including at major matches.

 

Stan

 

The most common I've seen where flyer is used for a 5 second bonus is; "shoot the popper and hit the clay bird. A hit on the bird is a 5sec bonus, a miss is not a miss. Failure to engage the bird will be scored as a miss." Or when a makeup target is used for a missed bird; "Failure to engage the makeup will be scored as a miss."

7 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

Shooter gets 2 misses for "failure to HIT" the 2 flyers (hitting the makeup target with shots #3 & #4 are simply FIRED ROUNDS that missed the 2 flyers).

Shooter is NOT REQUIRED to fire the "makeup" shots; he has the OPTION to accept those 2 misses and move on.
Shooter must hit the makeup target two more times (6 rounds total fired) to negate the 2 flyer misses...but it is NOT mandatory to do so.

 

Or this if bird is not a bonus and just a required target. "failure to shoot the makeup will be scored as a miss"

1 hour ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

Everything would depend on how the stage instructions are worded. Which comes back to your point of good stage writing.

 

 Yep

 

Jefro

RelaxEnjoy

[Tennessee williams]

On 11/9/2020 at 9:43 AM, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

Another similar example:
Two sets of "popper/flyer" shotgun targets with a stationary makeup target for any missed flyers.
Shooter (using a SxS) fires two rounds, KDing both poppers & launching both flyers simultaneously..

Shooter fumbles the reload (attempt to fire?) and the flyers hit the ground (no longer available to hit) 

Shooter completes the reload and double-taps the makeup target.

WtC?
Clean?
Two misses?
Procedural?
Two misses and a "P"?
Two misses, a "P", and a "SOG"

 

 

Assuming there is no set order except engage the fliers before the makeup and not looking in the SHB for proper verbiage and assuming the shooter has the same options for shotgun they do with a rifle/pistol.

 

Shooter shoots the 2 poppers(putting themself in a bad spot). All is ok.

 

Shooter fumbles the reload and is UNABLE TO ENGAGE the fliers. When a rifle target falls out of play we "shoot where it was". The birds are out of play. Instead of shooting where the birds were(or just down range) the shooter chose to shoot the makeup target. The makeup target is a designated shotgun target. That means the shooter just earned a P for engaging it before the fliers according to the miss flow chart. 

The shooter did hit all shotgun targets he shot at. He did not engage the 2 fliers  but shot the unavailable makeup sg target instead so he has 2 unfired rounds on those fliers. Here is where I believe 2 more shots on the makeup would give clean and a P.

 

Had the shooter successfully loaded those 2 and engaged the fliers instead of fumbling the rounds, I would have him clean.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

REF: RO2 pp.8-9 "Target Failure"

also
MD Guide "Stage Design" pp.4-5 #6.

 

 

[Captain Bill Burt]

2 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

Assuming there is no set order except engage the fliers before the makeup and not looking in the SHB for proper verbiage and assuming the shooter has the same options for shotgun they do with a rifle/pistol.

 

Shooter shoots the 2 poppers(putting themself in a bad spot). All is ok.

 

Shooter fumbles the reload and is UNABLE TO ENGAGE the fliers. When a rifle target falls out of play we "shoot where it was". The birds are out of play. Instead of shooting where the birds were(or just down range) the shooter chose to shoot the makeup target. The makeup target is a designated shotgun target. That means the shooter just earned a P for engaging it before the fliers according to the miss flow chart. 

The shooter did hit all shotgun targets he shot at. He did not engage the 2 fliers  but shot the unavailable makeup sg target instead so he has 2 unfired rounds on those fliers. Here is where I believe 2 more shots on the makeup would give clean and a P.

 

Had the shooter successfully loaded those 2 and engaged the fliers instead of fumbling the rounds, I would have him clean.

 

2 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

REF: RO2 pp.8-9 "Target Failure"

also
MD Guide "Stage Design" pp.4-5 #6.

 

 

Just for clarity, are you saying that in this situation we can call birds hitting the ground a prop failure?I think I probably am not understanding what you’re saying

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

16 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

 

Just for clarity, are you saying that in this situation we can call birds hitting the ground a prop failure? I think I probably am not understanding what you’re saying

 

I'm referring to the direction to "shoot where it was" in this section (as it may be applied to "aerial targets" no longer in play) in response to suggestions to assess a "P" for engaging the "makeup" target(s) (or just firing round(s) downrange) once the flyers are "un-engageable" ... NOT "prop" failure:

Quote

 

TARGET FAILURE

In the event a target fails or falls to the ground, the Timer Operator should instruct the shooter to “shoot where it was.” This call will never result in a penalty of any kind to the shooter. This process has been found to be far less confusing, and thereby safer, to the shooter than requiring an alternate target to be engaged, although it is perfectly acceptable for the shooter to engage an alternate target and be scored for hits and misses in the normal manner. Do not allow the shooter to engage a downed target as this may cause further damage to the target, or worse, may result in dangerous ricochets.

 

 

[Captain Bill Burt]

16 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

I'm referring to the direction to "shoot where it was" in this section (as it may be applied to "aerial targets" no longer play) in response to suggestions to assess a "P" for engaging the "makeup" target(s) (or just firing round(s) downrange) once the flyers are "un-engageable" ... NOT "prop" failure:

 

Thanks for clarifying. I’m moving a little slow today.

[Tennessee williams]

I'm not calling the fallen bird a prop failure, just saying they are no longer available. But, the birds have to be engaged before the makeup targets. The engagement of the birds means all of the difference. The makeup is a designated sg target. By definition you can't make it up before you engage the birds in my opinion. 

 

In the Regional this year, I was shooting at a pistol target and missed it. That miss hit another pistol target. Therefore I rightfully received a P. 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

I referenced nothing regarding "prop" failure.
 

My point is (and has been throughout these discussions) the difference between "engaging" the aerial targets with FIRED ROUNDS vs "attempting to fire" NEEDS to be addressed in the stage instructions.
ESPECIALLY when "makeup" and "bonus" (s/b "bogus" IMO) targets are thrown into the mix and shooter options are NOT CLEARLY STATED.

 

One more (LAST) time:

Quote

Targets that are activated by another target or prop (especially aerial shotgun targets) can be the source of varied interpretations and therefore require special instructions within the stage description to avoid problems

 

[Sedalia Dave]

Stage instructions need to clearly state if make up targets are mandatory or optional.  This alone will clear up a lot of confusion.

 

 

[Tennessee williams]

19 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

I referenced nothing regarding "prop" failure.
 

My point is (and has been throughout these discussions) the difference between "engaging" the aerial targets with FIRED ROUNDS vs "attempting to fire" NEEDS to be addressed in the stage instructions.
ESPECIALLY when "makeup" and "bonus" (s/b "bogus" IMO) targets are thrown into the mix and shooter options are NOT CLEARLY STATED.

 

One more (LAST) time:

 

I was talking to CBB. But, I know what yer sayin' and have been sayin'. I also know them explicit instructions aint always there. Whether poor stage design or perfect stage design, it's nice to know why a call is made as much as it is to know what call was made. That helps with every other call. In the absence of those explicit instructions:

Does a shooter have the same shooter options lined out in our conventions with  the shotgun as rifle and pistol?

Do we follow the miss flow chart the same way for everything?

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

16 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

I was talking to CBB. But, I know what yer sayin' and have been sayin'. I also know them explicit instructions aint always there. Whether poor stage design or perfect stage design, it's nice to know why a call is made as much as it is to know what call was made. That helps with every other call. In the absence of those explicit instructions:

Does a shooter have the same shooter options lined out in our conventions with  the shotgun as rifle and pistol?

Do we follow the miss flow chart the same way for everything?

 

There ARE differences between shooter's options re shotguns & rifles/revolvers.

REF:

STAGE CONVENTIONS (SHB p.14)
&

Safety & Handling Conventions – Shotguns (SHB p.16)

 

I'm NOT going to "quote" every one of them from the SHB, RO1, and RO2.

 

The "MISS FLOW CHART" does not take into account stage instructions that may override it (such as  "makeup" and "no miss" bonus targets)...so NO.

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

I got lost when we went from the OP with 6 stationary targets to some old thread with multiple fliers. 
 

Time to kill this thread and start over. 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

38 minutes ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

I got lost when we went from the OP with 6 stationary targets to some old thread with multiple fliers. 
 

Time to kill this thread and start over. 

 

Time to kill it and NOT start over!

IMO.