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Tennessee williams

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  Shotgun portion of stage has 6 stationary targets and scenario is this:

At the beep shoot all stationary Shotgun targets in a single tap sweep from the left beginning on target 1. No makeups.

 

Shooter loads 2 in their double and shoots targets 1 and 2, shooter loads 2 more in their double and shoots target 3 and tries to shoot target 4 but the shell fails to fire, shooter loads 2 more in their double and shoots targets 5 and 6.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

How about shooting the targets out of order?

He engaged the target that he had the miss on, so no P. Just the miss

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14 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

How about shooting the targets out of order?

 

From the shooters handbook

Engaged – attempting to fire a round at the target.

 

Since the shooter attempted to fire the round the targets were engaged in the correct order.

 

I would liken it to a jacked out rifle round when it comes to options available to the shooter.

 

Stan

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Seems he could of re-engaged #4 as the miss was due to ammo failure. But would have had to shoot #4 before engaging #5 & 6. Same as a FTF with a pistol, you could reload one if you want to save a clean match. I think! Technically he only fired 5 shots total. I say one miss, no P as he did engage #4.

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Same 4 options would apply as for ejecting a round from a lever gun, or having a failure to fire on a pistol round. 

 

http://www.oowss.com/SASS Rules Docs/Reload choices (edit Sept12).pdf

 

The only choice that makes the shooter clean is (after having a failure to fire on #4 target) - to shoot #4 and #5 targets with his #4 and #5 shots fired, then load one and fire the 6th round on #6 target.  Which is option #1 on the referenced "Recovery Technique"

 

By writing the stage as they did, they overrode the ":Comstock" makeup convention, and essentially made the rifle or pistol failed to fire or ejected round rules apply.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

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45 minutes ago, StirrupTrouble said:

He engaged the target that he had the miss on, so no P. Just the miss

 

38 minutes ago, Santa Fe River Stan,36999L said:

 

From the shooters handbook

Engaged – attempting to fire a round at the target.

 

Since the shooter attempted to fire the round the targets were engaged in the correct order.

 

I would liken it to a jacked out rifle round when it comes to options available to the shooter.

 

Stan

 

37 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Seems he could of re-engaged #4 as the miss was due to ammo failure. But would have had to shoot #4 before engaging #5 & 6. Same as a FTF with a pistol, you could reload one if you want to save a clean match. I think! Technically he only fired 5 shots total. I say one miss, no P as he did engage #4.

 

37 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Same 4 options would apply as for ejecting a round from a lever gun, or having a failure to fire on a pistol round. 

 

http://www.oowss.com/SASS Rules Docs/Reload choices (edit Sept12).pdf

 

The only choice that makes the shooter clean is (after having a failure to fire on #4 target) - to shoot #4 and #5 targets with his #4 and #5 shots fired, then load one and fire the 6th round on #6 target.  Which is option #1 on the referenced "Recovery Technique"

 

By writing the stage as they did, they overrode the ":Comstock" makeup convention, and essentially made the rifle or pistol failed to fire or ejected round rules apply.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

It is my understanding a shooter does not have the same options with shotgun that they have with rifle and pistol. The "shooters choice" only references rifle and pistols.

 

 

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And I believe (as I stated) that when you override the rules for shotgun and you write the shotgun targets part to be shot AS IF THEY WERE SHOT WITH A RIFLE, taking away makeups, reloads for a failure to fire, and requiring a specific target order, then the rules that are written for rifle and revolver have to be adopted for the making up of a round not fired, because otherwise there would be no rule covering the situation.

 

As always, when you start overriding some rules for a particular section of the stage, then you had better BE SURE you still cover ALL the cases of "what happens when some shooting failure" occurs.  In this case, if you don't rely  on the "exception choices" for other gun types, you end up having no rules really covering the exception cases.  A Failure of a Round to Fire in this case.    No where else in SASS rules do we penalize a shooter if a round does not fire, and they properly attempt to correct that by firing another round at the correct target needing to be hit.

 

Good luck, GJ

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11 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

And I believe (as I stated) that when you override the rules for shotgun and you write the shotgun targets part to be shot AS IF THEY WERE SHOT WITH A RIFLE, taking away makeups, reloads for a failure to fire, and requiring a specific target order, then the rules that are written for rifle and revolver have to be adopted for the making up of a round not fired, because otherwise there would be no rule covering the situation.

 

As always, when you start overriding some rules for a particular section of the stage, then you had better BE SURE you still cover ALL the cases of "what happens when some shooting failure" occurs.  In this case, if you don't rely  on the "exception choices" for other gun types, you end up having no rules really covering the exception cases.  A Failure of a Round to Fire in this case.    No where else in SASS rules do we penalize a shooter if a round does not fire, and they properly attempt to correct that by firing another round at the correct target needing to be hit.

 

Good luck, GJ

This WTC is an indirect extension of the previous WTC purly posted. On that one there were 2 shotgun poppers. The shooter shot one popper and the corresponding bird. The shooter shot the next popper and their shell failed to fire on the 4th shot while they were engaging the bird. The shooter then shot the bird makeup.  It was determined the shooter had one miss for not expending a round on the bird even though it was engaged. Shooter should have fired 2 more rounds after engaging the bird.

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56 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

 

 

 

It is my understanding a shooter does not have the same options with shotgun that they have with rifle and pistol. The "shooters choice" only references rifle and pistols.

 

 

in this situation isn't the number of rounds FIXED for the shotgun? 

 

Stan

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4 minutes ago, Santa Fe River Stan,36999L said:

in this situation isn't the number of rounds FIXED for the shotgun? 

 

Stan

You're correct. Is that the difference in the 2 WTCs? Does that give the shooter another option usually not available?

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10 minutes ago, Santa Fe River Stan,36999L said:

IMO that would make the difference......I could be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time or the last time...LOL....I don't agree with the call on the other thread. Again I could be wrong. 

 

Stan

I wasn't sure what the call was in the moment (on the other thread) and I didn't have a copy of the SHB with me.  So I called him clean pretty much following the logic you laid out on the other thread.

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In the other thread, when the shooter had the “fail to fire” on the bird, if he was fast enough, he was allowed to reload and shoot the bird before it hit the ground!!  The misfire counts as engaging the target!!  Given the fact that there was a makeup target and the shooter knocked it down, the miss caused by the “failure to fire” was properly made up and no miss should be scored!! NO P!!

 

In the case on this thread, the shooter is awarded a miss! The “failure to fire” is counted as engaging the target and thus the targets were engaged in the correct order.  NO P!!  The shooter COULD HAVE reloaded and shot target #4 and then continued to complete the shotgun sequence.

 

If the misfire had occurred on target #3, the shooter could have fired the fourth round on target #3 then reloaded and continued, firing on #s 4,5,and 6 in order without penalty!!

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30 minutes ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

In the other thread, when the shooter had the “fail to fire” on the bird, if he was fast enough, he was allowed to reload and shoot the bird before it hit the ground!!  

 

30 minutes ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

The misfire counts as engaging the target!!  Given the fact that there was a makeup target and the shooter knocked it down, the miss caused by the “failure to fire” was properly made up and no miss should be scored!! NO P!!

Hey B! That isn't what was decided on the other thread. The misfire did not count as engaging the target. It was decided a round had to go down range for the bird. Then a round had to hit the makeup target. I thought as you did. Look back at it on the 2nd page starting half way down.

30 minutes ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

 

 

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2 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

 

Hey B! That isn't what was decided on the other thread. The misfire did not count as engaging the target. It was decided a round had to go down range for the bird. Then a round had to hit the makeup target. I thought as you did. Look back at it on the 2nd page starting half way down.

 

It is an interesting decision. I pull my trigger, so I did engage the target. But the gun goes "click" instead of "bang." So the target is not engaged even though I (as the shooter) displayed intent.

 

I'm OK with the rule, but either way it is a miss. Or did I miss something, isn't the score the same either way?

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Just a thought... if you were shooting at a person and you "engaged" the same as either of these posts, you'd be tellin by the smell comin from their posterior that you had, in fact, "engaged" them... round down range or not. No extra round required! Just a thought.

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@Tennessee williams if you look at it this way would it change your call.  The shooter shoots #1 & #2, reloads, shoots #3, then shucks 2 rounds (one live, one expended), loads 2 more and engages #4 & #5 and lastly reloads for #6.  Would you call a miss then?  Would you give them a “P”?  To me if they successfully engage the targets in the correct order (not miss and shoot again) then other than more time for an extra reload it would be clean, no P.  All this talk of P’s, now I’ve got to go, I hate getting old :mellow:  

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1 hour ago, Tequila Shooter said:

 

I don’t understand, if the fourth round is counted as a miss on the flyer then why have a KD makeup?  I understand the “gamer” aspect, but IMHO if the stage is written with flyers and makeups, then as long as there is engagement of the flyer and the shooter misses but then engages and hits the KD it would be no miss. 

Ah, what you missed (pun intended) is because no shot was actually fired (it was a misfire) then the flyer was not missed until the 4th round was fired and just "happened" to hit that pesky makeup target which cannot be hit with the 4th round. The proper sequence to maintain a clean stage would have been to shoot the 4th round "where it was" (the flyer) and the 5th round can then be shot at the makeup target. I know, convoluted logic, but that's the rules.

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10 minutes ago, Ranger Dan said:

Ah, what you missed (pun intended) is because no shot was actually fired (it was a misfire) then the flyer was not missed until the 4th round was fired and just "happened" to hit that pesky makeup target which cannot be hit with the 4th round. The proper sequence to maintain a clean stage would have been to shoot the 4th round "where it was" (the flyer) and the 5th round can then be shot at the makeup target. I know, convoluted logic, but that's the rules.

Where in the handbook does it say that a shotgun round must be fired to count as engaged? 

 

Page number will be sufficient.

 

Stan

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15 minutes ago, Santa Fe River Stan,36999L said:

Where in the handbook does it say that a shotgun round must be fired to count as engaged? 

 

Page number will be sufficient.

 

Stan

That was PWBs interpretation, he did not quote a page. I believe it refers to an interpretation of the instructions when shotgun is 4+, ie 4 targets and they can be made up with extra rounds. You must fire the instructed number of rounds before engaging in makeup rounds. In this situation, the shooter engaged the makeup knockdown before engaging the actual target (the flyer) so it could have been a P, but the lesser penalty would be a miss on the flyer and never mind that the makeup was hit. I guess it is similar to 4 KDs close together, you hit 2 with 1 shot so only shoot 3. The instructions say 4+. Not shooting 4 shots would be a P even though all the targets fell.

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To avoid confusion, when I write stages for SG that have, for example, 4+, I state that there must be 4 shots fired.  If 4 fall down with 3 shots, you still have to fire the 4'th shot.  If you engage and the round does not go off, you must reload to get the 4th bang.  This applies primarily to flyer targets that have been missed.   You may not just take the miss.  You must fire all 4 shots or you get a P plus the miss.  If the SG breaks, then you get misses for unfired rounds.  

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22 minutes ago, Ranger Dan said:

That was PWBs interpretation, he did not quote a page. I believe it refers to an interpretation of the instructions when shotgun is 4+, ie 4 targets and they can be made up with extra rounds. You must fire the instructed number of rounds before engaging in makeup rounds. In this situation, the shooter engaged the makeup knockdown before engaging the actual target (the flyer) so it could have been a P, but the lesser penalty would be a miss on the flyer and never mind that the makeup was hit. I guess it is similar to 4 KDs close together, you hit 2 with 1 shot so only shoot 3. The instructions say 4+. Not shooting 4 shots would be a P even though all the targets fell.

I'm aware of PWB's interpretation but it's hard to make a call when you don't have him available on the range and all you have to look at is the handbook.....especially when the call does not necessarily follow the handbook.

 

From the shooters Handbook page 45

 

Engaged – attempting to fire a round at the target.

 

The shooter did attempt to engage the flyer.....Just as the shooter in the scenario in this post attempted to shoot target 4. So in this case there was no P for wrong target order. 

 

I am curious how you get a P for not firing 4 rounds? I can see giving a miss for not attempting to fire the 4th shot but not a P.

 

Stan

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23 hours ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

In the other thread, when the shooter had the “fail to fire” on the bird, if he was fast enough, he was allowed to reload and shoot the bird before it hit the ground!!  The misfire counts as engaging the target!!  Given the fact that there was a makeup target and the shooter knocked it down, the miss caused by the “failure to fire” was properly made up and no miss should be scored!! NO P!!

 

In the case on this thread, the shooter is awarded a miss! The “failure to fire” is counted as engaging the target and thus the targets were engaged in the correct order.  NO P!!  The shooter COULD HAVE reloaded and shot target #4 and then continued to complete the shotgun sequence.

 

If the misfire had occurred on target #3, the shooter could have fired the fourth round on target #3 then reloaded and continued, firing on #s 4,5,and 6 in order without penalty!!

 

4 hours ago, Ranger Dan said:

unfortunately no, the misfire on the flyer is counted as nothing, the reload and engagement of the knockdown makeup target is counted as a miss of the 4th shotgun round on the flyer. So add 5 seconds for a miss. This interpretation of the rules is to keep "gamers" from engaging the makeup target with their 4th round in a 4+ scenario. I don't really agree with it as it does not account for the misfire and reload situation seen here.

Don't use the term "miss-fire" to these two WTCs.  Miss-fire implies that the round did in fact, fire, just not wholly so.  I.e. cap or primer ignition.  Fail to fire means no primer ignition; a "click", no bang, psttt or fizzle.  For purposes of "engagement" all are satisfactory, but differ in options available to shooter.

 

IMO, just like pistol or rifle near squib that lands 2' short of target, shot that dribbles out of barrel, is a "round down range" and doesn't qualify for replacement under options listed for a round jacked out or FTF.

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21 minutes ago, Santa Fe River Stan,36999L said:

I'm aware of PWB's interpretation but it's hard to make a call when you don't have him available on the range and all you have to look at is the handbook.....especially when the call does not necessarily follow the handbook.

 

From the shooters Handbook page 45

 

Engaged – attempting to fire a round at the target.

 

The shooter did attempt to engage the flyer.....Just as the shooter in the scenario in this post attempted to shoot target 4. So in this case there was no P for wrong target order. 

 

I am curious how you get a P for not firing 4 rounds? I can see giving a miss for not attempting to fire the 4th shot but not a P.

 

Stan

Failure to follow the stage instructions. When the instructions say 4+, you MUST fire 4 shotgun. Note: FIRE 4 shotgun, not engage 4 times. Additional rounds may be fired to makeup misses. Firing 3 would be failure to follow the stage instructions = P. 

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27 minutes ago, Griff said:

 

Don't use the term "miss-fire" to these two WTCs.  Miss-fire implies that the round did in fact, fire, just not wholly so.  I.e. cap or primer ignition.  Fail to fire means no primer ignition; a "click", no bang, psttt or fizzle.  For purposes of "engagement" all are satisfactory, but differ in options available to shooter.

 

IMO, just like pistol or rifle near squib that lands 2' short of target, shot that dribbles out of barrel, is a "round down range" and doesn't qualify for replacement under options listed for a round jacked out or FTF.

Sorry, to me misfire=failure to fire=primer did not ignite. Squib=fired=primer ignited=projectile may or may not exit the barrel.

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In the other WTC, the shooter did fire 4 rounds satisfying a 4+ mandate and the bird was engaged. The whole point of this WTC is to show the two different scenarios in as close to the same light as possible. If there is no engagement plausible in the prior wtc but to make one in this wtc unnecessarily muddied the water of our handbook. In my humble opinion the same same shooter choices should apply to shotgun dud rounds as apply to revolver and rifle dud and jacked out rounds. As it is now by PWBs clarification it DOES NOT, as it is not mentioned in the shooters' choices.

Screenshot_20201102-110857_Chrome.thumb.jpg.b05b3e630166c717921d12c4ee6dbda1.jpg

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49 minutes ago, Ranger Dan said:

Failure to follow the stage instructions. When the instructions say 4+, you MUST fire 4 shotgun. Note: FIRE 4 shotgun, not engage 4 times. Additional rounds may be fired to makeup misses. Firing 3 would be failure to follow the stage instructions = P. 

 

So you give out misses and P's for jacked out rifle rounds that are not reloaded? misses and P's for pistol rounds that don't fire?

 

Those are only misses....the same with the shotgun......

 

Stan

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Hmm...

 

So it would not be gaming if:

 

Shot #1. Hit.

Shot #2. Hit

Reload.

Shot #3. Hit.

Shot #4. Click.

Reload. (Flyer hit ground during this time)

Shot #4 (not #5, second attempt at #4) into berm. This is a miss of the second flyer(?).

Shot #5 at makeup target. Miss made up?

 

Clean?

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1 hour ago, Ranger Dan said:

That was PWBs interpretation, he did not quote a page. I believe it refers to an interpretation of the instructions when shotgun is 4+, ie 4 targets and they can be made up with extra rounds. You must fire the instructed number of rounds bearyfore engaging in makeup rounds. In this situation, the shooter engaged the makeup knockdown before engaging the actual target (the flyer) so it could have been a P, but the lesser penalty would be a miss on the flyer and never mind that the makeup was hit. I guess it is similar to 4 KDs close together, you hit 2 with 1 shot so only shoot 3. The instructions say 4+. Not shooting 4 shots would be a P even though all the targets fell.

I think you're miss-interpreting PWB's, interpretation.   In a case where the shooter never attempted to fire at the flyer, yes, fire away,   But, in the scenario presented, the shooter had already engaged the target.  Follow the miss-flow chart.   Did the shooter engage the targets in the correct order?  The answer is "yes" to both scenarios.  No "P".  Did the shooter hit all the targets with the appropriate firearm?  "No", in both scenarios.  Did the shooter fire the required number of rounds?   In the 1st scenario, "yes", 4.  He'd already engaged it, I see no need to fire a 5th round.

 

In the second scenario, you could argue that a 6th round was needed to satisfy the round count.  But, did the instructions state "6 - shotgun"?  But, where does he shoot?  Any shotgun target earns the shooter a "P".  He's already earned 5 seconds for the miss.  And I know very few shooters that wouldn't have already added seconds or at least potions thereof to re-cock the shotgun to get that bad round to fire.  Yes, not firing that 6th round would mitigate the bleeding... but a competitive advantage?  Not quite there.

 

Please refer to RO rule #4.  "Don't be a hardass."

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