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Reshoot for mistaken Squib?


Dusty Sometimes

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For clarification - WTC

1- The TO mistakenly calls a Squib, shooter grounds the gun and continues. At ULT, no squib is found so a reshoot is requested due to TO interference, who made the call due to safety, to prevent a blown gun or injury and out of an abundance of caution, so reshoot is granted. 

Good call? 

 

2- Same scenario but ONLY the shooter mistaking calls Bad Gun for a Squib but neither the TO nor the spotters hear or call a Squib. At ULT, no squib is found. Should shooter get a reshoot if he called it but not the TO or spotters? 

 

For a mistakenly called Squib is the determining factor if the TO or spotters called it or not, just the shooter on his own? 

 

Of course if it's a Squib, the misses are on the shooter and the Posse couldn't allow someone to game the match by obviously calling a Squib on himself if his stage didn't go well. 

 

Thoughts? 

 

Dusty Sometimes 

Bayou Bounty Hunters of LA. 

 

 

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If the TO calls it, and there is no squib, shooter gets a reshoot. If the shooter calls a malfunction, no interference, no reshoot.  At least that's how we play the game in our neck of the woods. 

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10 minutes ago, Ripsaw said:

If the TO calls it, and there is no squib, shooter gets a reshoot. If the shooter calls a malfunction, no interference, no reshoot.  At least that's how we play the game in our neck of the woods. 

 

Correct

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1. YES

2. NO

Quote

In the case of a suspected squib, the CRO/TO will instruct the shooter to make the firearm safe and continue with the next firearm. If the barrel is later determined to be clear, the shooter will receive a reshoot

SHB p.14

Quote

l. If a safety command is given by the TO, that is later determined to be errant, (e.g., if a squib call is determined to actually be clear), the shooter will automatically receive a reshoot.

RO2 p.8

 

 

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If TO calls squib correctly, or if shooter calls squib, whether or not correct, then no reshoot.

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The shooter is calling a "malfunctioning gun" when he yells "squib".   All that gets the shooter is avoiding a penalty for grounding the gun before it is empty of live rounds. 

 

An inaccurately-called squib by a safety officer (TO or spotter) is an obstruction to the progress of the stage, which the shooter then gets to reshoot, carrying forward and P or Safety penalties that had been earned before the squib was called.

 

So, #1 - yes, a reshoot is granted.

 

#2 - No, no reshoot.  Shooter owns whatever unfired rounds the "claimed malfunction" prevented the shooter from firing.  Each unfired round is scored as a round-not-fired (a miss).

 

Good luck, GJ

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12 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

The shooter is calling a "malfunctioning gun" when he yells "squib".   All that gets the shooter is avoiding a penalty for grounding the gun before it is empty of live rounds. 

 

An inaccurately-called squib by a safety officer (TO or spotter) is an obstruction to the progress of the stage, which the shooter then gets to reshoot, carrying forward and P or Safety penalties that had been earned before the squib was called.

 

So, #1 - yes, a reshoot is granted.

 

#2 - No, no reshoot.  Shooter owns whatever unfired rounds the "claimed malfunction" prevented the shooter from firing.  Each unfired round is scored as a round-not-fired (a miss).

 

Good luck, GJ

I may have missed something but I thought only safety penalties carried forward to a reshoot?

 

Randy

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40 minutes ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

I may have missed something but I thought only safety penalties carried forward to a reshoot?

Randy

Yes, only safety penalties carry forward.

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At our club we allow one reshoot per stage, two total per match,  for gun or ammo failures, so in your scenario above, we would grant the reshoot.  People rarely take the reshoot, and we’ve not had anyone abuse it.  

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35 minutes ago, Woody Shootem, SASS # 24816 said:

At our club we allow one reshoot per stage, two total per match,  for gun or ammo failures, so in your scenario above, we would grant the reshoot.  People rarely take the reshoot, and we’ve not had anyone abuse it.  

 

I guess for a monthly, that wouldn't bother me enough to not shoot, but for a larger/annual match, I would not care for that. Either way, it's not SASS.  Part of the game is managing the reliability of your ammo and firearms.  No alibis....

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Quote

Reshoots are not awarded for ammunition or firearm malfunctions.

SHB p.21

 

Clubs that choose to not follow/enforce SASS rules at the local match level should inform their members regarding any deviations.
Failure to do so can result in "issues" when attending matches elsewhere.

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11 minutes ago, Ripsaw said:

 

I guess for a monthly, that wouldn't bother me enough to not shoot, but for a larger/annual match, I would not care for that. Either way, it's not SASS.  Part of the game is managing the reliability of your ammo and firearms.  No alibis....

Agreed.  I should clarify—our annual 3 day match is a no-alibi match.  Our reshoot policy is only for our monthly matches, and we have placed limits on it.  People rarely take a reshoot, they usually take the penalties and move on to the next stage. 

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17 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

Clubs that choose to not follow/enforce SASS rules at the local match level should inform their members regarding any deviations.
Failure to do so can result in "issues" when attending matches elsewhere.

Agreed.  It is mentioned at every match at our safety meeting.  Some, if not all of the other local clubs have the same policy, which is why we followed suit.  

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1 hour ago, Ripsaw said:

 

I guess for a monthly, that wouldn't bother me enough to not shoot, but for a larger/annual match, I would not care for that. Either way, it's not SASS.  Part of the game is managing the reliability of your ammo and firearms.  No alibis....

SHB page 21`

No Alibi/Reshoots/Restarts

SASS matches above the club level are “no alibi” matches. Once the first round goes down range, the competitor is committed to the stage and must finish the stage to the best of his or her ability.

 

If this is a club level match it is not required to be no alibi.  I shoot at two clubs that allow one reshoot per match for ammo or equipment failure.  Based on what I quoted from the SHB that seems perfectly within SASS rules to me.

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Never heard this subject made known at any Safety Meeting, local or State. And in the decades on the Wire ... first time the issue has been posted. Maybe because the matches I’ve attended few squibs have happened and when, the TO/RO’s made the call ... if cleared at ULT, reshoot.  Otherwise a crying towel and dust pan to collect the pieces

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15 minutes ago, John Boy said:

Never heard this subject made known at any Safety Meeting, local or State. And in the decades on the Wire ... first time the issue has been posted. Maybe because the matches I’ve attended few squibs have happened and when, the TO/RO’s made the call ... if cleared at ULT, reshoot.  Otherwise a crying towel and dust pan to collect the pieces

The majority of clubs where I shoot are 'no alibi' matches at the club level, but that's not required by SASS rules. 

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You know, it's just a game, so local rules can be anything the group agrees on, SASS or not SASS.   No issue with that. 

If I'm understanding correctly, some clubs allow (limited) reshoots for malfunctions other than squibs as we've been discussing.  I'd be interested in hearing the types of malfunctions that warrant a reshoot and those that don't and how that is decided during a match. Perhaps a list is published ahead of time? Any grounded malfunctioning gun?  

 

 We've wandered some distance from the original topic of TO (incorrectly) calling a squib. 

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6 minutes ago, Ripsaw said:

You know, it's just a game, so local rules can be anything the group agrees on, SASS or not SASS.   No issue with that. 

If I'm understanding correctly, some clubs allow (limited) reshoots for malfunctions other than squibs as we've been discussing.  I'd be interested in hearing the types of malfunctions that warrant a reshoot and those that don't and how that is decided during a match. Perhaps a list is published ahead of time? Any grounded malfunctioning gun?  

 

 We've wandered some distance from the original topic of TO (incorrectly) calling a squib. 

I’ve seen reshoots due to rounds that did not fire despite a clear hit on the primer, broken firing pin, jammed rifle due to split case and collapsed round, case separation and inability to chamber next round.

 

What I haven’t seen is anyone abuse that policy.

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9 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

..

What I haven’t seen is anyone abuse that policy.

 

Abuse of the "reshoot allowed for firearm or ammo malfunctions" policy in the past is the reason for the current rule.
Many years ago, some shooters would intentionally jam a firearm if they were having a bad stage, knowing that a reshoot would be granted.

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3 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

Abuse of the "reshoot allowed for firearm or ammo malfunctions" policy in the past is the reason for the current rule.
Many years ago, some shooters would intentionally jam a firearm if they were having a bad stage, knowing that a reshoot would be granted.

I have no doubt we still have shooters who would do that, poor upbringing and a lack of honor I guess. Happily I haven’t seen it.

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1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I’ve seen reshoots due to rounds that did not fire despite a clear hit on the primer, broken firing pin, jammed rifle due to split case and collapsed round, case separation and inability to chamber next round.

 

What I haven’t seen is anyone abuse that policy.

 

Sounds like nearly any "grounded" firearm warrants/permits a reshoot.  What would you consider "abuse" of the policy?   

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2 minutes ago, Ripsaw said:

 

Sounds like nearly any "grounded" firearm warrants/permits a reshoot.  What would you consider "abuse" of the policy?   

Claiming or creating an issue to get a reshoot to avoid penalties or get a chance at a do over due to poor performance on a stage.

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9 hours ago, Ripsaw said:

We've wandered some distance from the original topic of TO (incorrectly) calling a squib. 

And since we have done so...

 

Another sport I shoot at a local club allows one reshoot on only one stage for any reason.

 

Depending on the particular match, the cost of the reshoot is either $5 or $10.

 

The reshoot for a stage must be requested immediately at the end of the stage after the last posse member finishes.

 

If your score on the reshoot is worse than your original score, too bad. :lol: If you do even worse on a later stage and already bought a reshoot on an earlier stage, too bad. :lol:

 

Each year, all the collected money goes to a local charity. It's a nice thing for a local club and a bunch of friends to do.

 

Just throwing this into the mix as another way of looking at reshoots at a local club level.

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Southeast Regional 2020 in Alabama:

 

Severely hearing impaired. Haven't had a squib in over 7 years due to rigorous ammo management.

Clean & good times on stages 1-7, 9 & 10. On stage 8 rifle was first.

 

1st shot sounded funny. I highly suspected a squib & didn't want to run another bullet into that one. I grounded the rifle & shot the pistols & shotgun. At the UL table, there were 10 good bullets, proving it was a misfire, not a squib. In the heat of the moment, & without encountering a squib in years, I misinterpreted the suspected squib as a round fired.

 

Turns out the TO had been shouting Stop before I "bought" the stage by shooting the other guns.

 

10 misses, plus probably 4-5 seconds making the decision to ground the gun & proceed.

 

As you already know as well as me after having plenty of time to rethink everything while not at the firing line, I could have just stopped since no round had gone downrange. I also could have just pulled the hammer back & snapped it again, which likely would have fired the misfired bullet.

 

I pretty much have to learn all of my lessons the hard way. Smoked my entire match with this 55 second bad decision. I doubt I'll make that mistake again. I wouldn't mind if this stuff happened at a local shoot instead of a Regional. If I wanted to live thru it again, I'd tell an EOT story. But, no.

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Quote

Turns out the TO had been shouting Stop

 

Especially since it was before first shot had gone down range:

 

1. The TO  should have already known you didn't hear well.  Even if it takes YOU telling him that.  (It IS your responsibility to let the TO know if you can't hear someone yelling CEASE FIRE - because failing to obey a CEASE FIRE is a MDQ on you.)

 

2.  The TO was certain you did not fire a round down range.

 

So, as well as yelling "Stop,"

 

3.  A firm TO hand should have gone over your rifle or at least onto your shoulder to make sure you did not try continue.   Thus you would get a restart since first round did not fire. 

 

All TOs should be aware of which of their shooters cannot hear, and let them know what "hand signals" may be coming if the shooter needs to be "safely guided through the conduct of the stage."  Including CEASE FIRE and MUZZLE and probably also at least LOAD ONE (or two or three).

 

The final light bulb that should go on for a TO is if he has issued a STOP or CEASE FIRE command, and the shooter is not complying immediately, he MUST get that shooter's attention by laying on a hand(s) or blocking shooter's movement.  

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

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Disagree a 

2 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

 

Especially since it was before first shot had gone down range:

 

1. The TO  should have already known you didn't hear well.  Even if it takes YOU telling him that.  (It IS your responsibility to let the TO know if you can't hear someone yelling CEASE FIRE - because failing to obey a CEASE FIRE is a MDQ on you.)

 

2.  The TO was certain you did not fire a round down range.

 

So, as well as yelling "Stop,"

 

3.  A firm TO hand should have gone over your rifle or at least onto your shoulder to make sure you did not try continue.   Thus you would get a restart since first round did not fire. 

 

All TOs should be aware of which of their shooters cannot hear, and let them know what "hand signals" may be coming if the shooter needs to be "safely guided through the conduct of the stage."  Including CEASE FIRE and MUZZLE and probably also at least LOAD ONE (or two or three).

 

The final light bulb that should go on for a TO is if he has issued a STOP or CEASE FIRE command, and the shooter is not complying immediately, he MUST get that shooter's attention by laying on a hand(s) or blocking shooter's movement.  

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

Disagree a bit.  The statement should be "Restart" and if the person can't hear, and has notified the TO prior to starting the stage, then put a hand on and say "restart, if you want."  A "stop" command should only be used for a safety issue, IMO.   The shooter owns the stage.  In the shooter wishes to continue after you have indicated he/she can restart, it is on them.  

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In this case, the shooter would not have heard "Restart" either.

 

For hearing impaired shooters, I will CEASE FIRE them by putting hand on gun or shooter and calling CEASE FIRE  (and adding "Let's Restart You"  when I get their attention and the adrenaline levels have calmed down).

 

Shooter only owns the stage when the first round goes down range.    That had not yet happened.   Besides, I know of NO shooter who would want to take 10 misses in his rifle intentionally.   This is part of guiding a shooter through the stage, IMHO.

 

Good luck, GJ

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I agree a restart if the shooter could have been stopped before shooting another gun. Given that situation, how would you restart since a round has been levered in the rifle then misfired. Would you have the shooter empty and reload on the line or send them to unload and reload... next shooter ?

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26 minutes ago, Ranger Dan said:

I agree a restart if the shooter could have been stopped before shooting another gun. Given that situation, how would you restart since a round has been levered in the rifle then misfired. Would you have the shooter empty and reload on the line or send them to unload and reload... next shooter ?

I would base my decision on the shooter.  If he was flustered and wanted time to regroup I would send him to the ULT and have him start over.  If he was comfortable clearing the bad round, loading another and restaging I would let him do that. 

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