Jedi5150 Posted October 29, 2020 Share Posted October 29, 2020 Hello all, I have a Uberti El Patron Competition in 357 Magnum that I bought new, about 2 years ago, give or take. I haven't shot it much, but I do love the gun. I like it so much I just ordered a second Uberti (a Taylor's 4 3/4" in charcoal blue). I recently noticed that something seems not right with my El Patron. When I cock the hammer really fast, some times it won't stop on a chamber, and I can spin it to the next one. It doesn't do it consistently, some times I can get through all 6 chambers cocking it fast and it'll stop on each one, other times it won't stop and lock up on 4 out of the 6, and sometimes it will do it every other chamber. Is this an issue I can fix, or will I need to send it in to Stoeger to work on? I understand they have a 5 year warranty, so mine is well inside of that. But truth be told, I hate to be without the gun for long enough to get it sent in, and I'm concerned about having to get it shipped back to an FFL (I live in CA) after they look at it. That adds a huge hassle. Thanks in advance for any info or advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Posted October 29, 2020 Share Posted October 29, 2020 The hand needs to be looked at. Not indexing the cylinder correctly, skipping Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-BAR #18287 Posted October 29, 2020 Share Posted October 29, 2020 The problem could also involve the bolt spring and timing of the bolt dropping off the hammer cam. If it were mine, I would send it in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted October 29, 2020 Share Posted October 29, 2020 Send it back. You can send it directly to a FFL. Tell'em to supply you with a pre-paid shipper. You will have to take it to a FedX or UPS hub. Do NOT go to USPS. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi5150 Posted October 29, 2020 Author Share Posted October 29, 2020 Thanks Gents! I appreciate the feedback. It sounds like the consensus is to send it in, so I will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tequila Shooter Posted October 29, 2020 Share Posted October 29, 2020 Mine was doing the exact same thing a few months ago. Another Pard helped me solve the problem, it was the hand (pawl) that was just a little short. The way to fix it is simple, and yes this is the way even Colt tells gunsmiths to fix it. Take the hand out, it is soft metal, lay it on its side on something very hard (vice). Now for the fun part, using something like the side of a punch or a hex wrench lay it over the hand and with a hammer strike the punch/hex wrench. This will lengthen the hand slightly, after each hit reassemble and check your timing. The taking apart and reassembly are time consuming, but the fix is straight forward and easy. Worst case scenario you over stretch it and you’ll have to start over with a new hand (not expensive). For mine it took 2 hits and now it runs fine no over rotating cylinder and it has a nice tight lock-up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene, SASS # 27489 Posted October 29, 2020 Share Posted October 29, 2020 Hmm, it was working okay, then the problem started. The gun hasn't been shot much, so shouldn't have too much wear. My vote is cracked bolt spring. This is so easy to check (and repair, if necessary), I would do it before going to the hassle of sending a gun off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc X Posted October 29, 2020 Share Posted October 29, 2020 4 minutes ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said: Hmm, it was working okay, then the problem started. The gun hasn't been shot much, so shouldn't have too much wear. My vote is cracked bolt spring. This is so easy to check (and repair, if necessary), I would do it before going to the hassle of sending a gun off. Cracked bolt spring or a piece of crud hanging up the bolt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springfield Slim SASS #24733 Posted October 29, 2020 Share Posted October 29, 2020 It is over-rotating. You are cocking it so fast that the bolt doesn't have time to drop into the slot as the weight of the cylinder carries it right on past. Light bolt or pawl springs can add to the problem. My son's guns starting doing it also, but in talking to him he said that he had started to cock it really fast to speed up his times. But unless you find yourself waiting to finish cocking while you are on the next target already, I feel it is just abuse of the gun. What good does it do to cock in 1/10th of a second if it takes you 1/2 a second to get to the target? That being said, there are some things gunsmiths can do to compensate for super fast cocking. Heavier springs, earlier bolt drop, widen cylinder slots. Try slowing down the cocking just a bit and I bet the "problem" goes away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi5150 Posted October 30, 2020 Author Share Posted October 30, 2020 1 hour ago, Springfield Slim SASS #24733 said: It is over-rotating. You are cocking it so fast that the bolt doesn't have time to drop into the slot as the weight of the cylinder carries it right on past. Light bolt or pawl springs can add to the problem. My son's guns starting doing it also, but in talking to him he said that he had started to cock it really fast to speed up his times. But unless you find yourself waiting to finish cocking while you are on the next target already, I feel it is just abuse of the gun. What good does it do to cock in 1/10th of a second if it takes you 1/2 a second to get to the target? That being said, there are some things gunsmiths can do to compensate for super fast cocking. Heavier springs, earlier bolt drop, widen cylinder slots. Try slowing down the cocking just a bit and I bet the "problem" goes away. Thanks all, for the continued advice. Slim, I wanted to quote this because I think you are on to something. I should have clarified, the "problem" may always have existed, I think I just noticed it recently because I saw tests on youtube to check your timing, and this was one of them, so I tried it. So just to be super clear, it has never done this during actual firing, it has worked just fine the whole time I've owned it. I actually don't think I can cock it fast enough with a normal firing grip to replicate the problem. It's only when I hold it sideways and use an excessively fast cocking speed that it shows up. I know the simplest answer would be simply not to cock it that fast, I just wanted to check and see if it truly was indicative of an actual problem that I should send the gun in for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three Foot Johnson Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 The old EMF Armi Jager 1873's are notorious for that, and the simple fix is to add drag to the cylinder with some thick grease on the base pin and cylinder arbor hole. Uberti's can probably be fixed, but parts for Jagers are sparse. RG/Rohm used to put a longitudinal spring in the base pin to keep the cylinder from over rotating. German ingenuity right there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 Have you taken it apart? Sometimes the problem is obvious. Crud around the bolt or a weak spring could cause this problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 No properly working revolver, no matter how fast you cock it, should ever over rotate. To the OP, remove the cylinder and grips, using compressed air blow out all open areas that give you access to the inside of the frame. Especially where the cylinder stop comes up through the bottom inside of the frame. Same goes for the cylinder pawl at the back inside of the frame. Ck all screws for tightness. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 2 hours ago, Jedi5150 said: Thanks all, for the continued advice. Slim, I wanted to quote this because I think you are on to something. I should have clarified, the "problem" may always have existed, I think I just noticed it recently because I saw tests on youtube to check your timing, and this was one of them, so I tried it. So just to be super clear, it has never done this during actual firing, it has worked just fine the whole time I've owned it. I actually don't think I can cock it fast enough with a normal firing grip to replicate the problem. It's only when I hold it sideways and use an excessively fast cocking speed that it shows up. I know the simplest answer would be simply not to cock it that fast, I just wanted to check and see if it truly was indicative of an actual problem that I should send the gun in for. Based on your further explanation; Dollars to doughnuts says that if you send it back they'll say there is nothing wrong with it and just return it back to you. If it works during a match leave it alone until it starts showing problems when actually firing rounds. Youtube gun smiths are not always your friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene, SASS # 27489 Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 Jedi5150, the condition is called cylinder over-rotation or throw-by if you want to search on it. I agree with Lumpy that a properly operating single gun shouldn't do this regardless of speed. Several possible causes have been mentioned. A weak hand spring is one,. When you spin the cylinder at half-cock, does it spin for more than, say, a second? If so, screwing in the hand spring setscrew on the back of the frame can add a bit of tension. It could still be a weak trigger/bolt spring, even if not cracked. That is more likely if it is a wire spring instead of a flat spring. Could be the timing is just a bit late on the bolt popping up into the lead-in to the cylinder notch. This is easily fixed by taking a bit off the bolt leg that rides on the hammer cam, but it is probably more than an amateur should do without some guidance. Could be poor bolt head fit into the cylinder notch, which would be take more skill to fix, but few of these repro guns are going to be perfect there and they still lock up okay. That can become more of a problem as the gun wears. A short hand (pawl) was mentioned earlier. I don't see that as something to contribute to over-rotation, but I ain't a professional gunsmith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springfield Slim SASS #24733 Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 Cocking a gun super-fast is not how to check timing. That is like saying to check to see if your car is tuned properly you need to take it to redline for an hour. Sure, it might do it but it is just being abusive to your equipment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 2 hours ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said: A short hand (pawl) was mentioned earlier. I don't see that as something to contribute to over-rotation, but I ain't a professional gunsmith. I agree. And I'm not a professional gunsmith either. A short hand will drop the bolt too soon - not too late. Here is an example of one with a hand too short. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi5150 Posted October 30, 2020 Author Share Posted October 30, 2020 Many thanks to all the responses and insight! Because of this info, I believe I have figured out the problem. As Warden Callaway said, sometimes the simplest solution is to take it apart, so I did. Hopefully my mistakes will help someone else down the road who reads this: I was tired of my screws coming lose after every range trip, so in my infinite wisdom, I used loctite on pretty much every screw on the gun. When I took it apart (buggering up a number of screws in the process), I found that loctite residue was caked around the bolt, along with most of the other moving parts inside. Life lessons... ...which brings up another question; can anyone tell me the appropriate screwdriver size for the Uberti screws? I seem to have warped two screwdriver blades as well (including one from my Brownell's screwdriver set). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 OP, call Brownells, they will send you a replacement free if it's a magna-tip. Use blue #242. Apply just a small dab to the threads. You can you heat(tip of soldering iron)to help loosen the screw. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 If up need to replace screws, consider hardened screw kit from VTI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc X Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 11 hours ago, Jedi5150 said: Many thanks to all the responses and insight! Because of this info, I believe I have figured out the problem. As Warden Callaway said, sometimes the simplest solution is to take it apart, so I did. Hopefully my mistakes will help someone else down the road who reads this: I was tired of my screws coming lose after every range trip, so in my infinite wisdom, I used loctite on pretty much every screw on the gun. When I took it apart (buggering up a number of screws in the process), I found that loctite residue was caked around the bolt, along with most of the other moving parts inside. Life lessons... ...which brings up another question; can anyone tell me the appropriate screwdriver size for the Uberti screws? I seem to have warped two screwdriver blades as well (including one from my Brownell's screwdriver set). Crud is the enemy in wheel guns. Back in my days of pin shooting with a revolver (model 29 Smith) I bought a bucket of "Dunk It" gun cleaner. It loosened up a chunk that I didn't get blown out and caused the exact problem you had. You haven't lived until you see the cylinder over rotate full of .44 mag pin loads! Somehow I was able to back off the trigger and didn't drop the hammer. Sat down and shook for a while though. Glad you found your problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 If You have think you have the right amount of locktite applied to a screw you probably have too much. Locktite is one of those things where a very little dab will do you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 10 hours ago, Doc X said: pin loads @Doc X What are "pin loads"??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three Foot Johnson Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 Heavy loads for bowling pin shoots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc X Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 8 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said: @Doc X What are "pin loads"??? Exactly what Three Foot said. A load designed to move an AMF bowling pin three to four feet straight backward. Takes a big heavy bullet moving slightly under 1000 fps. As a comparison a 1980's factory 9mm would usually just knock a pin over but not move it any distance. The most popular caliber back in the day was the .45acp with a 230gr at about 850fps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 Thanks. Learned early on that Cowboy loads and bowling pins don't go together; especially shotgun loads. The pins shoot back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
45 Dragoon Posted October 31, 2020 Share Posted October 31, 2020 More than likely the bolt drop is a little late, the bolt head isn't centered in its tracking ( to the rear, bad, in the center- correct, forward - ok), weak hand spring, weak bolt side of combo spring. A bolt block and action stop would be necessary for the most reliable/ parts saving additions. A S.A. out of the box ( "factory tuned" or not) isn't ready for "fast handling" but it's an easy setup for a lifetime of doing so. BTW, using a thick grease to mask a timing flaw is at most . . . a joke!! Funny thing though, if it's a Ruger, it's accepted as "normal". Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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