Short Shot Shells, Magtech Brass

[El CupAJoe]

Anyone have any experience with these for CAS?  I'm thinking about picking some up for shooting frontiersman as I plan to reload for my shotgun, but don't plan on picking up a shot shell press anytime soon.  If I find a good load that runs at less than a normal 2 3/4 inch shell, is there anything in the rules about cutting down the shell to run at less than a standard OAL?  I didn't see anything when I was looking through the rulebook but I thought I'd ask here.  

 

 

 

 

[Blackwater 53393]

Been using them for years!  Lots of fun and lots of work.  

 

I wouldn’t cut them down unless the ends are damaged. I just load ‘em short and let the extra brass hang out there.  You may want to load some “Boomer” rounds sometime down the road!!  

 

 

[July Smith]

When I first started SASS I used those.  They look really cool but I could never get them to shuck well.  Nothing in the rules about cutting them shorter (that I am aware of) but unless you have an older shotgun that requires a shorter shell I would not bother. 

[Trooper Ozzy]

I cut my 10 ga down to 12 ga length to cycle cleanly through 1887. Measure finished length on 12 gauge. Cut to that size. Harbor Freight cut off wheel works well after using tape to build edge for straight cut. 
remember to slightly roll crimp end to smooth insertion into gun. 

[Texas Joker]

Yea but where do you find em right now? 

Only ones I see in stock are for 16 ga. And with Old West Scrounger running specials on Toz hammered 16's and Zastava 16's I really thought about it

[El CupAJoe]

45 minutes ago, Trooper Ozzy said:

I cut my 10 ga down to 12 ga length to cycle cleanly through 1887. Measure finished length on 12 gauge. Cut to that size. Harbor Freight cut off wheel works well after using tape to build edge for straight cut. 
remember to slightly roll crimp end to smooth insertion into gun. 

I assume the roll has to be reapplied every reload?

 

[Texas Joker]

My understanding is that the roll crimp helps hold the overshot card in place but you still need to secure it with something like liquux glass, elmers or hot glue. It also is easier to chamber than straight walled brass.

[Ozark Shark]

1 hour ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

Been using them for years!  Lots of fun and lots of work.  

 

I wouldn’t cut them down unless the ends are damaged. I just load ‘em short and let the extra brass hang out there.  You may want to load some “Boomer” rounds sometime down the road!!  

 

 

+1  
 

I've run them for about 5 years in my SxS shooting APP.  I experimented with cutting them to two inches.  I found the short shells slower to load and shuck.  So I stayed with the 2.75 inch.  The best investment I made for the brass shot shells was the purchase of a CH4D die set.  CH4D dies are not cheap, but you get what you pay for.  The RCBS resizer hardly touched a shell even when they had fire formed to the diameter of my shotgun's chamber.  The CH4D brought them back down to factory spec with one cycle.  Even fully lubed, initially, each shell took significant effort to resize.  Ongoing, the sizer die has kept the diameter in check making them much easier to load and shuck.  Adding the roll crimp also made them much easier to load into the gun.

[Blackwater 53393]

1 minute ago, Ozark Shark said:

+1  
 

I've run them for about 5 years in my SxS shooting APP.  I experimented with cutting them to two inches.  I found the short shells slower to load and shuck.  So I stayed with the 2.75 inch.  The best investment I made for the brass shot shells was the purchase of a CH4D die set.  CH4D dies are not cheap, but you get what you pay for.  The RCBS resizer hardly touched a shell even when they had fire formed to the diameter of my shotgun's chamber.  The CH4D brought them back down to factory spec with one cycle.  Even fully lubed, initially each shell took significant effort to resize.  Ongoing, they have helped keep the diameter in check making them much easier to load and shuck.  Adding the roll crimp also made them much easier to load into the gun.

 

+1 on the CH4D dies. Proper  sizing and the roll crimp die makes them useable in my ‘97 as well.  I got mine as part of a buy from an estate sale.  I want to get a set for my 10ga brass shells.

[Hashknife Cowboy]

Yes I do use the Magtech 12 gauge brass SG shells.  I recommend them highly just do not step on the empties  when on the line.  E mail me and I will send you my load with 777.......dr3498@hotmail.com

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

I've been running MagTech 12Ga Brass hulls in my Hammer Doubles for about 5 - 6 seasons now.  You do not need cut them down.  I have only had to resize about  five hulls when some hammock stepped on them.  Otherwise, just load, shoot, Repeat.  I have found it necessary to fully seat the primers.  For my convenience and reliability, I scored an inexpensive Lee Classic single stage, added the RCBS shell holder and the RCBS die set (singular).  I use the press to de-prime and re-prime my hulls.  Absolutely no Miss-Fire.

 

My basic load is 40Gr APP, A Ballistic Products Spitfire Wad, a One Ounce payload and over shot cards.  No Glue.  Work the biz.  Don't overthink it.

 

Additionally, unless your trying to run Brass Hulls in a repeater ('87 or '97) I DO NOT recommend rolling the case mouth.  that just makes them harder to reload.  The roll DOES NOT come out on firing.

 

YMMV 

[Tequila Shooter]

42 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

I've been running MagTech 12Ga Brass hulls in my Hammer Doubles for about 5 - 6 seasons now.  You do not need cut them down.  I have only had to resize about  five hulls when some hammock stepped on them.  Otherwise, just load, shoot, Repeat.  I have found it necessary to fully seat the primers.  For my convenience and reliability, I scored an inexpensive Lee Classic single stage, added the RCBS shell holder and the RCBS die set (singular).  I use the press to de-prime and re-prime my hulls.  Absolutely no Miss-Fire.

 

My basic load is 40Gr APP, A Ballistic Products Spitfire Wad, a One Ounce payload and over shot cards.  No Glue.  Work the biz.  Don't overthink it.

 

Additionally, unless your trying to run Brass Hulls in a repeater ('87 or '97) I DO NOT recommend rolling the case mouth.  that just makes them harder to reload.  The roll DOES NOT come out on firing.

 

YMMV 

 

Agree with CC for roll crimping, tried it and it just makes loading harder.  Here’s a link to my post on loading them with the load I use in my SxS.  http:// Brass SG Shell Reloading with a MEC Sizemaster

 

if you don’t have a SG loader you can use a ¾ inch dowel to stuff them.  I’ve had to resize some that I bought used that were out of round, I put a steel rod In the vise, slide the shell over it and with a mallet got them round again.  While doing it I used a shell checker to work the areas that needed attention.

 

YMMV

 

 

[El CupAJoe]

59 minutes ago, Hashknife Cowboy said:

Yes I do use the Magtech 12 gauge brass SG shells.  I recommend them highly just do not step on the empties  when on the line.  E mail me and I will send you my load with 777.......dr3498@hotmail.com

thanks for the offer, I already muzzle load my 20 gauge, so I'll probably start with that load.

 

CupAJoe

[El CupAJoe]

4 minutes ago, Tequila Shooter said:

 

Agree with CC for roll crimping, tried it and it just makes loading harder.  Here’s a link to my post on loading them with the load I use in my SxS.  http:// Brass SG Shell Reloading with a MEC Sizemaster

 

if you don’t have a SG loader you can use a ¾ inch dowel to stuff them.  I’ve had to resize some that I bought used that were out of round, I put a steel rod In the vise, slide the shell over it and with a mallet got them round again.  While doing it I used a shell checker to work the areas that needed attention.

 

YMMV

 

 

link doesn't seem to work for me.

 

[Tequila Shooter]

Try this one SG Reloading with MEC

[Tequila Shooter]

3 hours ago, July Smith said:

When I first started SASS I used those.  They look really cool but I could never get them to shuck well.  Nothing in the rules about cutting them shorter (that I am aware of) but unless you have an older shotgun that requires a shorter shell I would not bother. 

 

I spray mine with Hornady One Shot before storing them, shuck out like poop out’a goose.

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

I use 11 ga wads and overshot cards. I seal the load with Elmers so no crimp/roll needed. I use a long steel rod to de-prime. Wooden dowel to push BP down with wad.

The chambers on my SXS are opened up and they drop right in.

[John Kloehr]

Following this thread, will be reloading my MagTech brass soon with APP. I'll start a thread for that when I get a bit closer, still need a few more tools. But I will be reloading by hand (no press).

 

Where to get shells? Try the classifieds on this forum, a WTB thread might shake some out. I found some there, and so have others since I found my small supply some months ago.

 

I did not see anything against cutting them down in the rules, but why? From studying this problem, one of the things I have found is to run a thick enough wad to bridge the distance between the end of the shell and the chamber forcing cone. Well, if the shells don't fit the gun, then yes cut them; Be aware MagTech shells seem to be a bit shorter than the published size. At least measure your chamber and the shells before cutting.

 

If you cut the shell down, then you need more wad to bridge the distance from the case mouth to the barrel. From what I have researched, bridging the distance between shot and expanding powder creates a better pattern. If you cut down the shell, you would then need more wad. This is from research, not experience.

[Trooper Ozzy]

7 hours ago, El CupAJoe said:

I assume the roll has to be reapplied every reload?

 

No. Its a slight roll that the fiber and paper wads are inserted past. The roll for me allows easier smoother insertion into the 87 or sxs.  Its not for holding the overshot card down secure. That's what your wife's glue gun is for. 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

1 hour ago, John Kloehr said:

...If you cut the shell down, then you need more wad to bridge the distance from the case mouth to the barrel. From what I have researched, bridging the distance between shot and expanding powder creates a better pattern. If you cut down the shell, you would then need more wad. This is from research, not experience.

 

Nah, not for CAS.  I have Rem-UMC, Winchester, and Alcan brass hulls.  Different lengths.  There is a LOT of empty space at the mouth of the long ones, very little space with the short ones, never a problem with knockdowns.  Now, I don't skimp on the shot.  60gr Goex, overpowder nitro card, red plastic wad, 1 1/8 oz shot (this is more shot than a square load for better pattern), and an overshot card glued with wood glue.  11ga wads.

 

One thing I have to pay attention to with differing lengths of shells is that in any given match, you can shoot shorter shells after longer ones, but not vice versa without cleaning the chamber!

 

A note regarding wads.  More experienced shotgunners say that fiber wads pattern best in older shotguns, with modern made guns working better with plastic wads.  I found this true early on so just use plastic wads.  Cleanup is always super easy (TTN and Baikal).

 

BTW, these hulls were all used when I bought them so history is unknown, but I've loaded them over 50 times each with no splits (not roll crimping the mouth).

[Turkey Flats Jack]

I ran a lot of magtech 12 ga shells. first in my sxs then in my 87. If you're wanting to trim them just so the load is at the end there's no need for that. Trimming them down to 2.25 inches (same length as a modern unfired plastic shell) helps them cycle in my pw87 better. the roll crimp helped them even more. The trouble with the roll crimp is it doesnt come out after firing them. So you need to flatten it out to reload them. Annealing them makes it much easier.  YMMV 

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

There is no need to run real "thick" wads.  It has been sort of a misplaced tradition to use fiber wads either dry or lubed.  those fiber wads are NOT necessary if you are using modern wads.   The modern wads also provide another important benefit.  A SHOT CUP.  The shot cup will give better patterning as well as keeping the shot string together through the bore.  The old fiber wads are called "cushion" wads for a reason.  They reduce felt recoil and cushion the shot column against the sudden acceleration.  There are two very good modern wads to use.  Ballistic Products PT 1044, actually a 10Ga wad that fits the Magtech hull perfectly.  the 1044 will need it's petals cut back to your preferred load level.  Ballistic Products Spitfire which will expand it's base just fine.  Perfect for a 1 Ounce pay load.

 

The most important part is secure, complete seating of the Primer.

 

I have not tried squirting the hulls with One Shot as they go inna box.  I may have to try that, Gamer that I are.

[John Kloehr]

11 hours ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

 

Nah, not for CAS.

...

A note regarding wads.  More experienced shotgunners say that fiber wads pattern best in older shotguns, with modern made guns working better with plastic wads.  I found this true early on so just use plastic wads. 

 

11 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

There is no need to run real "thick" wads.  It has been sort of a misplaced tradition to use fiber wads either dry or lubed.  those fiber wads are NOT necessary if you are using modern wads.

It is likely you are both right, in great part due to the short distances involved in this sport. Certainly, the collective sense is that choke selection does not matter.

 

But I will still experiment to satisfy myself if it makes any difference. I might find there is a difference but the distances we shoot makes it inconsequential.

[Tequila Shooter]

11 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

There is no need to run real "thick" wads.  It has been sort of a misplaced tradition to use fiber wads either dry or lubed.  those fiber wads are NOT necessary if you are using modern wads.   The modern wads also provide another important benefit.  A SHOT CUP.  The shot cup will give better patterning as well as keeping the shot string together through the bore.  The old fiber wads are called "cushion" wads for a reason.  They reduce felt recoil and cushion the shot column against the sudden acceleration.  There are two very good modern wads to use.  Ballistic Products PT 1044, actually a 10Ga wad that fits the Magtech hull perfectly.  the 1044 will need it's petals cut back to your preferred load level.  Ballistic Products Spitfire which will expand it's base just fine.  Perfect for a 1 Ounce pay load.

 

The most important part is secure, complete seating of the Primer.

 

I have not tried squirting the hulls with One Shot as they go inna box.  I may have to try that, Gamer that I are.

 

CC - every time I’ve used plastic wads it’s been a PIA for me cleaning the barrels.  With the fiber wads I just rinse the barrels with water, dry and recondition.  When I tried cleaning it that way after plastic wads I had a build up of plastic that took quite a while to get out.  What am I doing wrong?

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

Tequila 

 

Nuttin "Wrong" actually.  Plastic wads result in a certain amount of "Snake Skin" left in the bore.  A large factor in the "snake skin" is the shotgun itself.  Chrome Lined bores retain far less snake skin and are far and away easier to clean.

 

My personal is to squirt the bores with PAM and wait a couple of minutes.  Then I wrap a 12Ga Bore Brush with heavy duty Paper Towel (Blue stuff from Lowes) and squirt the paper towels with PAM and shove it down the bore.  A couple two three scrubs and done (usually) followed by a dry towel and then an Oily Patch.  It actually takes longer to type this than it does to clean a barrel.

 

At help??  I hope??

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

A couple of people have said the roll crimp does not come out when you fire the Magtech brass. 

I have found that it usually does.   Sometimes it doesn't because I made a mistake in the loading but when I do it right, the roll comes out.  You don't need to roll a lot.  Just enough to hold the overshot card in place.  And I don't glue those in place either.

 

Of course, I also run smokeless in them with no problem.

[Tombstone Steve]

Does anyone have a in on where to get some 12ga brass hulls. I want to start frontier cartridge.

[John Kloehr]

13 minutes ago, Tombstone Steve said:

Does anyone have a in on where to get some 12ga brass hulls. I want to start frontier cartridge.

Post a WTB in the classifieds on this site. At this time, finding a pard to let some go is far easier than finding new stock.

 

That is where I found mine.

 

If they were in stock (and they are not), I would probably buy them from here:

 

https://www.ballisticproducts.com/MagTech-12ga-2-1_2-empty-brass-shotshells-for-reloading/productinfo/3921270/

 

They also have a lot of the other stuff you will need for loading them. That is where I got 11GA cards and wads. Not a typo. 11GA cards and wads to fit these thin brass 12GA shells.

[Tombstone Steve]

Thanks very much. For the info.

[El CupAJoe]

On 10/12/2020 at 7:56 PM, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

A note regarding wads.  More experienced shotgunners say that fiber wads pattern best in older shotguns, with modern made guns working better with plastic wads.  I found this true early on so just use plastic wads.  Cleanup is always super easy (TTN and Baikal).

 

Mine is a 1900-ish hardware store gun made by Crescent/Fox, 20 gauge.  

[John Kloehr]

1 hour ago, El CupAJoe said:

 

Mine is a 1900-ish hardware store gun made by Crescent/Fox, 20 gauge.  

You will need to research to find the correct wad and card gauges for 20 GA brass.

[Sergeant Smokepole #29248L]

One word of advice. You need to load them with 11 gauge wads, not 12 gauge. The 12 gauge wads do not seal well as the case walls are thinner than plastic shells. The 12 gauge wads allow a ton of blow by and I have gotten a very hollow sounding report from my Black Powder loads. BTW, I load with fiber wads, not plastic.

[Blackwater 53393]

For those of you who choose to use plastic wads, the quick and dirty way to clean the crud out of the barrel is to soak the inside of the barrel with Windex, (I use the regular kind and quickly wipe off any excess) and fire a couple of cheap, store bought, smokeless rounds through the gun, run a couple of clean patches down the barrel and follow that with another patch soaked in Ballistol.!!

 

Just don’t shoot the host’s targets!  They won’t appreciate the nasty mess!!