Rye Miles #13621 Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 Four guys in a saloon playing poker in the OLD WEST and one of the players accuses the dealer of cheating. An argument ensues. The dealer is really angry at the player for accusing him a cheating as they're arguing the dealer reaches inside his jacket, the player then draws his pistol and shoots the dealer square in the chest with a .45 and kills him. He claims self defense because he thought the dealer was going for a gun. The dealer was unarmed. Was it self defense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smuteye John SASS#24774 Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 He moved his hands out of sight in a dangerous situation where an accusation worthy of getting called out into the street is involved and got shot when the other guy thought that he was going for a gun. I'd call it self defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoken D Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 Why you carry a throw-a-way. Problem solved Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badlands Bob #61228 Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 I guess it depends on where it happened. Was this in a Republican or a Democrat saloon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Mark Flint #31954 LIFE Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 Probably a valid self defense case, IIRC self defense is based upon the defenders reasonable belief- but in defense of others, you had better be correct though as the standard is less inclusive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted October 7, 2020 Author Share Posted October 7, 2020 55 minutes ago, Smoken D said: Why you carry a throw-a-way. Problem solved Wouldn't do much good since he shot him in front of everyone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forty Rod SASS 3935 Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 1 hour ago, Smuteye John SASS#24774 said: He moved his hands out of sight in a dangerous situation where an accusation worthy of getting called out into the street is involved and got shot when the other guy thought that he was going for a gun. I'd call it self defense. Me too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Duncan Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 1 hour ago, Rye Miles #13621 said: Four guys in a saloon playing poker, one of the players accuses the dealer of cheating. An argument ensues. The dealer is really angry at the player for accusing him a cheating as they're arguing the dealer reaches inside his jacket, the player then draws his pistol and shoots the dealer square in the chest with a .45 and kills him. He claims self defense because he thought the dealer was going for a gun. The dealer was unarmed. Was it self defense? Problem #1. The saloon was mandated to be closed because of the China Virus. Problem #2. Wearing virus masks how could they hear it was an argument? Problem #3. Shooter carrying a fire arm!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! Problem #4. Dealer was politically correct as he reached for his "Race card". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted October 7, 2020 Author Share Posted October 7, 2020 9 minutes ago, Matthew Duncan said: Problem #1. The saloon was mandated to be closed because of the China Virus. Problem #2. Wearing virus masks how could they hear it was an argument? Problem #3. Shooter carrying a fire arm!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! Problem #4. Dealer was politically correct as he reached for his "Race card". This was in The Old West! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 In the old west, maybe. Depending of whether ofr not the shooter was well liked in the community and the gambler was not. Today, legally? The shooter has a big problem. Big. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Bob Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 3 hours ago, Smoken D said: Why you carry a throw-a-way. Problem solved I know a retired officer that has a couple 5 gallon pails full of , Jennings , raven pistols quite a few inexpensive revolvers and allot of knives. He always referred to them as his throw down buckets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Hangtree Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 5 minutes ago, Buckshot Bob said: I know a retired officer that has a couple 5 gallon pails full of , Jennings , raven pistols quite a few inexpensive revolvers and allot of knives. He always referred to them as his throw down buckets I hope the officer you refer to doesn't make such statements in public or on social media. Once that gets out, it would be grounds for dismissal of any weapons related cases he had in the past. Not a smart thing to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Bob Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 7 minutes ago, Marshal Hangtree said: I hope the officer you refer to doesn't make such statements in public or on social media. Once that gets out, it would be grounds for dismissal of any weapons related cases he had in the past. Not a smart thing to say. He retired back in the late 70s or early 80’s , he just jokes about it . He said they used to take guns/knives off of kids all the time , the way he talked I don’t think they were even charged . I definitely think it was a different back then . He told me he did get some time off once for notching his shotgun stock during the Watts riots . I’m thinking today you’re never going to be in law enforcement again if you do something like that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619 Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted October 7, 2020 Author Share Posted October 7, 2020 4 hours ago, Utah Bob #35998 said: In the old west, maybe. Depending of whether ofr not the shooter was well liked in the community and the gambler was not. Today, legally? The shooter has a big problem. Big. The story was set in the old west, I should have stated that but I thought everyone would take it for granted! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakejaw_Joe Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 Legally you are only allowed to shoot if your life is in immediate threat of death. Being verbally threatened doesn't count, destruction of your property doesn't count, trespassing doesn't count (in most states). Mostly, FEARING DEATH is not the same thing as being objectively threatened. This is the biggest issue we see today in self defense cases that flip. Many people caught in self defense shootings claim 'I felt threatened'. Well, now we have the problem of psychotic Ned who thinks the aliens are mind controlling him to do their grocery shopping. A woman who is having a bad day is grocery shopping with a sneer on her face and she turns to look at the apples behind Ned, but Ned thinks she's staring him down and she might pounce on him and eat him alive. I believe that Ned truly and honestly FEELS threatened. But objectively, he is not. This is the defining factor for gun crimes today. Even brandishing without objective threat is a serious crime. I saw a video of a guy at Costco who got into a yelling spat with another customer. He fronts on the other guy and shouts 'I FEEL THREATENED' and goes to pull his gun. Nope, jailtime bucko. We are all allowed the benefit of the doubt. The dealer may have been reaching for a handkerchief to sneeze. Or his cell phone to call his lawyer for assistance. The law was written for this reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakejaw_Joe Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 3 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said: The story was set in the old west, I should have stated that but I thought everyone would take it for granted! Ah that changes things. Well knowing that information, I think it would all come down to the man's reputation in the city. If he was generally a good man who was well liked, they'd let it pass. If he was known to cause trouble and start fights... probably not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irish ike, SASS #43615 Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 Many a good citizen has been shot because they reached for something that wasn't there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted October 7, 2020 Author Share Posted October 7, 2020 22 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said: Many a good citizen has been shot because they reached for something that wasn't there! Ahhh.....but was this guy a good citizen? He was cheating at cards so therefore he was stealing money! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tex Jones, SASS 2263 Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 Probably depends on the town. Gunfights would have been investigated and there would be a coroner's inquest. The town marshal would not, as in the movies, sum it up as self defense, and drop the matter. For example, the OK corral gunfight resulted in Wyatt Earp and Doc Holliday being put in jail, initially, until they were freed following Judge Spicer's decision there was no basis to go to trial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619 Posted October 8, 2020 Share Posted October 8, 2020 He was reaching for a cellphone, which is enough to get you shot these days. After all, a cellphone looks like a gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cactus Jack Calder Posted October 8, 2020 Share Posted October 8, 2020 Self Defense I used to have a book of reputed “true stories of the old west”. In it there was an account of an incident in Deadwood ND. The story is of a Gambler who was threatened by a known badman and gun tough. He was told to leave town as the next time the badman saw him he would shoot him dead. The Gambler was known to not carry a gun. Instead of leaving town the Gambler waited in a saloon, at the end of the bar furthest from the entrance. On the bar he placed a gun covered with his hat. When the badman entered the Gambler picked up the gun, shot and killed his antagonist. In the trial the Gambler was acquitted of murder. The shooting was ruled self defense as it was an established fact that the badman killed without compunction and the Gambler had no chance in a “fair fight.” His only option was to shoot before being shot. QED. CJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Mark Flint #31954 LIFE Posted October 8, 2020 Share Posted October 8, 2020 The law evolves (and unfortunately at times devolves) constantly In the Old West it would be very dependent upon the jurists involved In Ft Smith you would hang, further west it would become increasing less likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdgun Quail, SASS #63663 Posted October 8, 2020 Share Posted October 8, 2020 I don't care whether is was self defense or not. I'd come back and haunt him! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted October 8, 2020 Author Share Posted October 8, 2020 8 hours ago, Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619 said: He was reaching for a cellphone, which is enough to get you shot these days. After all, a cellphone looks like a gun. It was in the old west! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted October 8, 2020 Author Share Posted October 8, 2020 7 hours ago, Birdgun Quail, SASS #63663 said: I don't care whether is was self defense or not. I'd come back and haunt him! As a Baptist you wouldn't cheat at cards though would you?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdgun Quail, SASS #63663 Posted October 8, 2020 Share Posted October 8, 2020 2 hours ago, Rye Miles #13621 said: As a Baptist you wouldn't cheat at cards though would you?? Or ever tell a lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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