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bgavin

When a LEO Wants to Search Your Vehicle

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Howdy,

No.  You might upset Bambi.

Who is Bambi?

Bambi is my pet snake and I havent seen him in a while.

Not sure where he is now.

 

What do you think?

Best

CR

just a thought pards.....

 

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4 hours ago, bgavin said:

I was hopeful you would chime in.

I fully get "No", but I don't want to sound rude or confrontational.
The best way to win this game, is to not play.

So far, the one that plays best in my head:
"Very simply state "no sir,  I do not give you permission to search.  Am I free to go?"

 

Say'n "NO" is not any more rude than saying "YES".

OLG 

 

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18 hours ago, LawMan Mark, SASS #57095L said:

Very simply state "no sir,  I do not give you permission to search.  Am I free to go?"

This seems just about perfect.

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Any officer worth their badge does not go fishing.  To do so will compromise your reputation with the department, courts and the community.  The contact must be professional and should there be just cause for any type of search, the officer has to follow the 4th Amendment to the letter.  To violate Due Process is a Federal offense.  

 

The correct answer is always a polite and simple, "No, sir."

 

If the officer is a true professional they know they must respect that answer.  

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I said said No. And had the vehicle searched twice.

 

First time was a private vehicle returning from adjoining county that sold fireworks. There was a "checkpoint" and they were searching every vehicle. when asked if we minded them looking in the trunk we refused. It took them about 15 minutes to get a faxed search warrant to look in the trunk. They found ....... a spare tire..... The officer was not happy!

 

Second time I was pulled over in my clearly marked work van which was returning from the same location. This was about three years after the first incident. The Nevada Highway Patrol pulled me over and asked to look in the rear of the van. I refused. He didn't care. Made me pull further off the road and proceeded to go through every compartment in the rear of the van. When he found no fireworks he asked me what I was doing in the fireworks store. To which I replied...... My job. He left everything in the van in disarray and some things out on the ground behind the van. Took me days to get everything back in place. 

Complaint filed. Officer was given time off without pay. The bill I submitted for technicians time was never paid.

 

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I have always been told, don’t directly answer their question as it has no correct answer.  If you say no, they they ask what are you hiding.    A more correct answer is “at this time I do not give permission to search my vehicle” or “at this time I decline to give permission to search”.   That does a couple things, 1) it says you know what he is doing with his loaded question, 2) there is an out as you can change your mind, you just said right now you do not give permission. 3) says in a non confrontational way that they can not search.  

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I have only been asked once by a law enforcement officer if he could search my vehicle and I refused, mostly because the Game Warden was a jerk.

 

Situation:

Year 1982.  In Texas.  Dove Season.

That year, Texas had a split opening day of dove season.  Opening for Morning Dove season began Sept. 1 at noon.  After opening day, shooting could begin a half hour before sunrise---EXCEPT two weeks later when Whitewing Dove season opened.   On this day again no shooting allowed for either Morning or Whitewing until noon.  See a problem here?

 

The Second Opening Day--Whitewing Dove opener:

I was out to my spot about 11:00 that morning and stayed in my vehicle.  There was an old man and a young boy set up within my view.  I suspected it was a grandfather and grandson.  A very young looking Game Warden came up to the old man and asked if he was having any luck.  The old man said they’d only got two so far.  The young Game Warden asked if he could see the birds.  The old man showed him two dove.  Then the young Game Warden began loudly berating the old man, telling him he was in violation of Game Laws, was setting a bad example, and then wrote the old man a citation, followed by more berating.  The old man and boy packed up and left.  I really felt sad for the old man.

 

Shortly, the Game Warden came up to me and asked me if I’d had any luck.  I told him, “No.  I haven’t fired a shot.”  Then the Game Warden asked me if he could search my vehicle.  I told him, “No.”  The young Game Warden then said to me, “If you haven’t done any shooting, why won’t you let me search your vehicle.”  I then went off!  I told the jerk that I’d seen what he’d done to that old man.  That this split season with two opening days at noon was not well thought out and why.  And, that if he’d had any common sense he’d have known that maybe the old man was not aware of the change in time to begin shooting, and just how ashamed he’d made the old man look in front of the young boy.  And, that I was not going to let him search my vehicle, not because I’ve nothing to hid, but because the Game Warden lacked common sense, situational awareness, and acted like a jerk!  I was hot!

 

The young Game Warden said he was just doing his job and enforcing the law.  I told him when he was more mature that he’d understand law enforcement is not just writing citations and berating grandfathers in the presence of their grandsons.  The young Game Warden didn’t bother me further.

 

 

 

.

 

 

Edited by Birdgun Quail, SASS #63663
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23 hours ago, Michigan Slim said:

No sir. No more, no less.

 

Careful they don't trick you by asking "Do you mind if I search your vehicle?"

 

No sir ....

 

 

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Officer:   may I search your vehicle?

 

Driver:    No thank you.   That will be unnecessary because I haven't lost anything.

 

 

..........Widder

 

 

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Widder... glad to see you are feeling better!

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3 hours ago, Hashknife Cowboy said:

Any officer worth their badge does not go fishing.  To do so will compromise your reputation with the department, courts and the community.  The contact must be professional and should there be just cause for any type of search, the officer has to follow the 4th Amendment to the letter.  To violate Due Process is a Federal offense.  

 

The correct answer is always a polite and simple, "No, sir."

 

If the officer is a true professional they know they must respect that answer.  

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If the officer is a true professional, he won't act like a dick in the first place.

The true professional is the cop who pulled me over at 3am after playing a music gig out of town.
I had lost a headlight on the way up, so I was a one-eye on the way home.
Being an early riser, I had been awake 20+ hours and a bit wobbly behind the wheel.

He pulled me over, put his light in my face and asked my story.
Being in close, he could tell I was not drinking or smoked up.

I told him I do not drink, at all, on the band stand nor when driving.
He was SO courteous and polite, and was concerned about me getting home the last 40 miles.

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State trooper pulls me over , 'Can I search your truck ? " 

 

  NO , Marty , you can NOT , the fill your coffee cup , as I hand him the therm. , by the way , When are ya gonna be at the barber shop ?

I need a haircut 

 

  later bro , stay safe 

 

  CB 

 

  the guys seem to like my coffee 

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16 hours ago, Birdgun Quail, SASS #63663 said:

I have only been asked once by a law enforcement officer if he could search my vehicle and I refused, mostly because the Game Warden was a jerk.

 

Situation:

Year 1982.  In Texas.  Dove Season.

That year, Texas had a split opening day of dove season.  Opening for Morning Dove season began Sept. 1 at noon.  After opening day, shooting could begin a half hour before sunrise---EXCEPT two weeks later when Whitewing Dove season opened.   On this day again no shooting allowed for either Morning or Whitewing until noon.  See a problem here?

 

The Second Opening Day--Whitewing Dove opener:

I was out to my spot about 11:00 that morning and stayed in my vehicle.  There was an old man and a young boy set up within my view.  I suspected it was a grandfather and grandson.  A very young looking Game Warden came up to the old man and asked if he was having any luck.  The old man said they’d only got two so far.  The young Game Warden asked if he could see the birds.  The old man showed him two dove.  Then the young Game Warden began loudly berating the old man, telling him he was in violation of Game Laws, was setting a bad example, and then wrote the old man a citation, followed by more berating.  The old man and boy packed up and left.  I really felt sad for the old man.

 

Shortly, the Game Warden came up to me and asked me if I’d had any luck.  I told him, “No.  I haven’t fired a shot.”  Then the Game Warden asked me if he could search my vehicle.  I told him, “No.”  The young Game Warden then said to me, “If you haven’t done any shooting, why won’t you let me search your vehicle.”  I then went off!  I told the jerk that I’d seen what he’d done to that old man.  That this split season with two opening days at noon was not well thought out and why.  And, that if he’d had any common sense he’d have known that maybe the old man was not aware of the change in time to begin shooting, and just how ashamed he’d made the old man look in front of the young boy.  And, that I was not going to let him search my vehicle, not because I’ve nothing to hid, but because the Game Warden lacked common sense, situational awareness, and acted like a jerk!  I was hot!

 

The young Game Warden said he was just doing his job and enforcing the law.  I told him when he was more mature that he’d understand law enforcement is not just writing citations and berating grandfathers in the presence of their grandsons.  The young Game Warden didn’t bother me further.

 

 

 

.

 

 

I think that in most States a game warden who reasonably believes that a person has recently been fishing or hunting, but lacks reasonable suspicion that the person has violated an applicable fish or game statute or regulation, may stop the suspect's vehicle to demand the person show all game or fish the person has caught or taken. They can search the vehicle in the process. Around here they set up game check stations on opening weekend and if there is anything visible that would look like you have been hunting you vehicle is  going to get searched. Lots of game violations and drugs get found that way. In most cases they are very courteous and professional. 

Edited by T.J. Bones SASS# 75616
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I have nothing to hide, let the Officer conduct a warrant less search.

 

Unknown to you someone placed drugs in your car because (insert plausible reason here).  You get arrested and your vehicle forfeited to the government.

 

”No Sir I do not give permission for a search of my vehicle.”  Meanwhile the dash cam I rotated to cover the incidence is recording.

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1 hour ago, T.J. Bones SASS# 75616 said:

I think that in most States a game warden who reasonably believes that a person has recently been fishing or hunting, but lacks reasonable suspicion that the person has violated an applicable fish or game statute or regulation, may stop the suspect's vehicle to demand the person show all game or fish the person has caught or taken. They can search the vehicle in the process. Around here they set up game check stations on opening weekend and if there is anything visible that would look like you have been hunting you vehicle is  going to get searched. Lots of game violations and drugs get found that way. In most cases they are very courteous and professional. 

Correct. The Game officers frequently have expanded search authority in many states.

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Game Warden came up to me and asked me if I’d had any luck.  I told him, “No.  I haven’t fired a shot.”  Then the Game Warden asked me if he could search my vehicle.  I told him, “No.”  

 I was not going to let him search my vehicle, not because I’ve nothing to hid, but because the Game Warden lacked common sense, situational awareness, and acted like a jerk!  I was hot!

 

 

Well to start with, you cannot refuse an inspection of your vehicle because you feel the Game Warden was a jerk! You're lucky he didn't impound your vehicle.

 

Just for reference I was a federal game warden in a past life.
In most states a game warden has the right to "inspect" (not to be misconstrued as a "search"), if you are located in an area where fish and game are located (not in Times Sq., New York City), and there is reason to believe that you are engaged or could be engaged in the taking of said Fish and Game. This could be as little as a fishing bobber on the dashboard of your truck.

 

I'm not splitting hairs with words as our "barracks lawyer" above. What I'm trying to portray is it there is a difference between a Game Warden and a LEO. There are actually different laws and standards of practice for a Game Warden. When it comes to vehicle/building searches a Game Warden has considerably more latitude.

 

This is similar to the implied consent law pertaining to driving under the influence. You have a drivers license, which is a privilege not a right and you are agreeing to submit to a field sobriety and/or breathalyzer test (or blood tests) if the officer has "reasonable articulable suspicion"  ;) that your driving under the influence (not to be confused with the right to search the vehicle, visual observations only). If you have a hunting license, "implied consent" comes into play. Again, this is an "inspection" not a "search". Anything found during the vehicle inspection is evidence. Also, the area of the vehicle which is inspected must be able to contain fish and/or game. So searching your eyeglasses holder compartment on the roof of your truck is not likely to hold a 12 point buck or a legal size trout.

 

The only reason I'm posting all of this is so no one gets the notion you can flip off a Game Warden that is polite enough to ask to look into your vehicle or cooler (he does not have to 'ask') and get away with it based upon this thread. This Game Warden was probably wet behind the ears otherwise he might have called for a tow truck, impound your vehicle and your gun until such time as a search warrant could be obtained and a now "search" is conducted. Even if nothing was found, you could loose your license to hunt/fish (that greater latitude provided to the Dpt of Fish and Game). Discretion is the better part of valor on his part , but if you want to be a jerk he can play the game also . Just so you know.

17 hours ago, Birdgun Quail, SASS #63663 said:

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Blast Masterson said:

If you have a hunting license, "implied consent" comes into play.

 

Hmm.  Seems to be an easy way around that one.  Sorry sir, I never got a hunting license so I didn't give implied consent!

 

 

I've never had a game warden search my boat.  My dad and I are really bad at fishing so the vast majority of the times we were checked out by a game warden we had caught nothing.  Sounds like they should have assumed we were lying and done a search.  The one or 2 times when we did have something, dad was eager to show them to anybody.  Even a game warden.  I remember one time the warden said "Had to step on that one a little, didn't ya?" and dad looked worried.  But nothing came of it. 

 

 

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I think many were missing the point of BGQ's narrative. Yes, he said he refused, and yes everyone agrees, probably even BGQ, that if the warden had wanted, he could have pushed the issue and searched. I read it as an important reminder on how those in law enforcement treat others. After the exchange, the young warden may have been more than happy to let BGQ go on his way, and hope his treatment of the old man didn't elevate to a report to his supervisor. Which probably should have been the case.

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45 minutes ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

 

Hmm.  Seems to be an easy way around that one.  Sorry sir, I never got a hunting license so I didn't give implied consent!

 

Uhhh....no. :lol:

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The whole game warden thing violates so many rights. So being in an area that you can fish or hunt, and you have a license "implies" consent to search. Why then doesn't having a drivers license give cops "implied" consent? You're in an area that sells liquor, drugs, hookers etc. so your assumed to be guilty! It doesn't make sense.

 

I enjoy watching YouTube videos where the public knows the law better than the cops. Especially around ID demands and videoing or photographing in public. Even worse the abuse 2nd amendment people get when carrying legally.

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51 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

The whole game warden thing violates so many rights. So being in an area that you can fish or hunt, and you have a license "implies" consent to search. Why then doesn't having a drivers license give cops "implied" consent? You're in an area that sells liquor, drugs, hookers etc. so your assumed to be guilty! It doesn't make sense.

 

I enjoy watching YouTube videos where the public knows the law better than the cops. Especially around ID demands and videoing or photographing in public. Even worse the abuse 2nd amendment people get when carrying legally.

I believe you would have to be in possession of equipment that would allow you to accomplish that activity. Such as a gun or a fishing pole.

Standing in a duck blind with a pair of binoculars without a gun in close proximity would not be "engaged in the activity".

Now if you are dumb enough to admit to having hunted, then you are under his jurisdiction.

 

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3 hours ago, Blast Masterson said:

 

Well to start with, you cannot refuse an inspection of your vehicle because you feel the Game Warden was a jerk! You're lucky he didn't impound your vehicle.

 

Just for reference I was a federal game warden in a past life.
In most states a game warden has the right to "inspect" (not to be misconstrued as a "search"), if you are located in an area where fish and game are located (not in Times Sq., New York City), and there is reason to believe that you are engaged or could be engaged in the taking of said Fish and Game. This could be as little as a fishing bobber on the dashboard of your truck.

 

I'm not splitting hairs with words as our "barracks lawyer" above. What I'm trying to portray is it there is a difference between a Game Warden and a LEO. There are actually different laws and standards of practice for a Game Warden. When it comes to vehicle/building searches a Game Warden has considerably more latitude.

 

This is similar to the implied consent law pertaining to driving under the influence. You have a drivers license, which is a privilege not a right and you are agreeing to submit to a field sobriety and/or breathalyzer test (or blood tests) if the officer has "reasonable articulable suspicion"  ;) that your driving under the influence (not to be confused with the right to search the vehicle, visual observations only). If you have a hunting license, "implied consent" comes into play. Again, this is an "inspection" not a "search". Anything found during the vehicle inspection is evidence. Also, the area of the vehicle which is inspected must be able to contain fish and/or game. So searching your eyeglasses holder compartment on the roof of your truck is not likely to hold a 12 point buck or a legal size trout.

 

The only reason I'm posting all of this is so no one gets the notion you can flip off a Game Warden that is polite enough to ask to look into your vehicle or cooler (he does not have to 'ask') and get away with it based upon this thread. This Game Warden was probably wet behind the ears otherwise he might have called for a tow truck, impound your vehicle and your gun until such time as a search warrant could be obtained and a now "search" is conducted. Even if nothing was found, you could loose your license to hunt/fish (that greater latitude provided to the Dpt of Fish and Game). Discretion is the better part of valor on his part , but if you want to be a jerk he can play the game also . Just so you know.

 

 

Not looking for a fight, but I am curious, if the game warden has "the right to inspect" and/or "implied consent" then why would you need to get a search warrant or impound any property?  You already have "the right" or "consent", who needs a warrant?  Seems to me that would be an illegal seizure of property without probable cause.

 

I've never been a game warden, but my time as a street cop makes that seizure look illegal as heck.

 

Sure, tell him "No, you can't search my vehicle"  He replies "Don't care.  Gonna search it anyway."  If he has the right, he has the right.  Your opinion is irrelevant.  But impounding the vehicle on those grounds?

 

Angus 

 

Edited by Black Angus McPherson

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3 hours ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

I believe you would have to be in possession of equipment that would allow you to accomplish that activity. Such as a gun or a fishing pole.

 

This reminds me of the story where the fisherman's wife took the boat out early in the AM.
She did not fish, but did enjoy being on the water.

The game warden pulls her over, and tries to cite her for illegal fishing because she has the equipment in the boat.
She says, "No problem.  I will be filing rape charges against you when we get back to shore."
Shocked, he asks why.
"Because you have the equipment", she replies.

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7 hours ago, Blast Masterson said:

Well to start with, you cannot refuse an inspection of your vehicle because you feel the Game Warden was a jerk! You're lucky he didn't impound your vehicle.

 

I'm not splitting hairs with words as our "barracks lawyer" above.

 

(Please read this with me talking in a quiet, friendly, non-confrontational tone of voice.)

      Blast, you've got me there!   Since at the time I was a Sergeant First Class in the US Army, I was just a "barracks lawyer."   And, I probably was lucky he didn't impound my vehicle as I didn't know he could have forced me to submit to a vehicle inspection.   I was in dove hunting garb and had a cased gun in plain sight.  But, the young Game Warden did ask if he could search my vehicle...he didn't demand.  He asked, I refused.  Then he questioned why I refused.  That's when I went off and started dressing him down because of his dealings with the old man.  Somewhere in that discussion I did tell him I knew legal shooting time was noon.  So, the young Game Warden likely suspected I didn't have any illegal game in my vehicle. 

 

That was the only time I've ever been asked by any law enforcement officer if he could search my vehicle and that's why I posted my one experience.  As an avid bird hunter, I've encountered quite a few Game Wardens, but that was the only time I've ever had an issue with a Game Warden.  My "barracks lawyering" was not about his legal authority but about his behavior shaming the old man in front of the young boy.  Blast, I do hope you're not defending the young Game Warden's conduct with the old man. 

 

 

 

.

Edited by Birdgun Quail, SASS #63663
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6 hours ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

 

I enjoy watching YouTube videos where the public knows the law better than the cops.

Enjoy? Why?

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Because the cops, not all of them, step all over people, make crap up, make illegal demands and step on our rights. It's rewarding to watch a cop try and make someone do something they don't have to,,,,and the the sergeant shows up and corrects the officer. People are also suing the heck out of cops and cities for false arrest, illegal detainment, unlawful demands.

Ultimately the cops learn what they van and can't do.

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5 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

Because the cops, not all of them, step all over people, make crap up, make illegal demands and step on our rights. It's rewarding to watch a cop try and make someone do something they don't have to,,,,and the the sergeant shows up and corrects the officer. People are also suing the heck out of cops and cities for false arrest, illegal detainment, unlawful demands.

Ultimately the cops learn what they can and can't do.

But they can still ask, and they can judge our reaction to the request. And at some level without actually violating rights, that is within the definition of good police work.

Edited by John Kloehr
Spelling, mine and the quote

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6 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

Because the cops, not all of them, step all over people, make crap up, make illegal demands and step on our rights. It's rewarding to watch a cop try and make someone do something they don't have to,,,,and the the sergeant shows up and corrects the officer. People are also suing the heck out of cops and cities for false arrest, illegal detainment, unlawful demands.

Ultimately the cops learn what they van and can't do.

Just wondering where you stood.

 

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They can ask, and you have the right to not answer. But what happens they then start tossing out obstruction, or impeding their investigation. They cuff you, detain you and arrest you. Later to find out that what they did is illegal.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Utah Bob #35998 said:

Just wondering where you stood.

 

Bob, what's that mean? I support law enforcement and expect people to obey the laws. I also expect cops to know the laws and what our rights are. When they overstep their authority or impose laws incorrectly what should we do?

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Police officers and Fish and Game officers have a hard and thankless job.  As there are several million of them you will find very good ones and very bad ones most are just doing their job as outlined by someone upstairs.  Being a jerk, happens to us all at some time or other on the job or off.  If you are polite but firm 99.9 % of the officers I know will cut you as much slack as they can. However, if you lie or attempt to conceal what they probably have already watched you do.  You're probably going to be toast and in the process of encountering the biggest jerk cop on the face of the earth. 

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well the local game and fish guy , has to come get his lab back from me 

 

 if in the same cove , the lab hits the water full steam ahead , he knows there be fresh cold water and treats in my boat 

 

he did ask to look in the bait tank 1 time , when I was guiding , while having a cold drink , and trying to get the lab to get back in his boat 

 

see him most every News Year day , to have coffee 

 

  CB 

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1 hour ago, twelve mile REB said:

Police officers and Fish and Game officers have a hard and thankless job.  As there are several million of them you will find very good ones and very bad ones most are just doing their job as outlined by someone upstairs.  Being a jerk, happens to us all at some time or other on the job or off.  If you are polite but firm 99.9 % of the officers I know will cut you as much slack as they can. However, if you lie or attempt to conceal what they probably have already watched you do.  You're probably going to be toast and in the process of encountering the biggest jerk cop on the face of the earth. 

Well sometimes it seems like several million but actually There are about 800,000 Law enforcement officers in the us. That includes. Game officers, deputies, city cops, etc.
 

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1 hour ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

Bob, what's that mean? I support law enforcement and expect people to obey the laws. I also expect cops to know the laws and what our rights are. When they overstep their authority or impose laws incorrectly what should we do?

Your statement that you enjoy the videos gave me pause. I watch them too but there’s no enjoyment in it for me. And your statement,

 “Because the cops, not all of them, step all over people, make crap up, make illegal demands and step on our rights”,  Kind of made it seem you believe the majority are like that. In fact it’s a very small minority that try to get away with that stuff. Having done internal investigations in the past, I can state that with certainty.

 

Of course the majority of citizen/police videos that get posted are going to be negative and paint the officers in the worst light. Understandable. I got used to it after 30 years. Makes it hard to keep upbeat about your job, Bless the guys still on patrol, trying to make a difference. It’s damn sure a thankless job.
Glad to be retired

 

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