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Null N. Void

WTC - Gunfighter - Trouble with One Pistol

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All targets are hit in the correct sequence.   Gunfighter gets to pistols, and shoots 2 shots from each pistol and has the left pistol jam.  The shooter shoots out the right pistol.  He holsters the right pistol.  He uses both hands to get the left pistol to cock, and ends up with the cocked pistol in his right hand.  The problem continues.  The shooter has already shot 5 shots from the right hand.   If the shooter shoots the 6'th shot from the right hand, I believe the shooter gets a procedural as gunfighter requires 5 shots from each hand.  But the shooter is correcting a malfunction with both hands, which is allowed.  So can they transfer the pistol back to the left hand and shoot it out?  Or is it a SDQ for transferring a cocked firearm?

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The Gunfighter can use both hands to clear a pistol but if he has fired 5 shots with his right hand it would be a P ( for shooting out of Category) to shoot the 6th shot with his right hand. If he transfers a cocked pistol to his left hand it would be a SDQ.

 

IMHO

Randy

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I think I agree with earlier replies:

 

- Transfer cocked pistol after clearing fault, get an SDQ.

 

- Better to fire round 6 from right hand, take the procedural.

 

I think there are two other options available to the shooter:

 

Declare "bad gun" and set it down. Take the misses (and the time to last shot fired). This was an option at the initial failure and since the gun has not yet been fired after clearing the fault, it is still an available option.

 

Unsure on one more option... Decock the revolver as the last step of clearing the malfunction, transfer it to the left hand, continue with string. I would have to read the rules again to see if a revolver can be transferred with hammer down on a live round.

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22 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

Unsure on one more option... Decock the revolver as the last step of clearing the malfunction, transfer it to the left hand, continue with string. I would have to read the rules again to see if a revolver can be transferred with hammer down on a live round.

I would strongly suggest that you read the manual... Just taking guesses is not the way to go and simply posting hypothetical guesses is unproductive.

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32 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

I think I agree with earlier replies:

 

- Transfer cocked pistol after clearing fault, get an SDQ.

 

- Better to fire round 6 from right hand, take the procedural.

 

I think there are two other options available to the shooter:

 

Declare "bad gun" and set it down. Take the misses (and the time to last shot fired). This was an option at the initial failure and since the gun has not yet been fired after clearing the fault, it is still an available option.

 

Unsure on one more option... Decock the revolver as the last step of clearing the malfunction, transfer it to the left hand, continue with string. I would have to read the rules again to see if a revolver can be transferred with hammer down on a live round.

So the shooter has 'cleared the fault' but is going to declare a malfunction to avoid a penalty?  Hmmm.

 

SHB page 23 under SDQ

"A cocked revolver leaving a shooter's hand"

"De-cocking a revolver.....without positive direction to do so from CRO/TO"


SHB page 15

Revolvers safe to leave the shooter's hand in the following conditions only:

Hammer fully down on an empty chamber, Hammer fully down on an expended round.

 

 

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14 hours ago, Null N. Void said:

He uses both hands to get the left pistol to cock, and ends up with the cocked pistol in his right hand.

 

... the shooter is correcting a malfunction with both hands, which is allowed.

 

20 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I would strongly suggest that you read the manual... Just taking guesses is not the way to go and simply posting hypothetical guesses is unproductive.

 

I did,  and did not find a clear answer to my question. But I did not include everything I did find. I had found this in the definition for gunfighter style:

  • Revolvers must be cocked and fired one handed, unsupported

at the bottom of page 6. Clearing the malfunction in this scenario required two hands, so that is already a procedural for shooting out of style, except the shooter is allowed to use both hands to clear the malfunction. Benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter.

 

The revolver is in the wrong hand and cocked. The round has to go down range. Or declare bad gun. Can the gun be legally decocked and transferred to the "correct" hand? I did not find that answer. If I had, I would have posted it in my earlier response.

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Quote

A cocked revolver may never leave a shooters hand, including from one hand to the other.

SHB p.15

 

Quote

Malfunctioning firearms still containing rounds will not warrant penalties so long as the malfunction is declared and the firearm is made safe.

SHB p.28

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3 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

So the shooter has 'cleared the fault' but is going to declare a malfunction to avoid a penalty?  Hmmm.

There was a malfunction. The malfunction might be cleared, and might not. The initial malfunction is not proven cleared until the next shot is fired.

 

At this point, the hammer is cocked and a presumably live round is under the chamber.

 

Even if the malfunction is cleared, it may occur again after this round is sent down range. It may still be a bad gun. "Bad gun" is not a bad call on the part of the shooter. 

 

But I get your point. Declaring a bad gun to avoid a penalty would be unsportsmanlike behavior.

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25 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

SHB page 23 under SDQ

"A cocked revolver leaving a shooter's hand"

"De-cocking a revolver.....without positive direction to do so from CRO/TO"

Ah, had not found that.

 

The shooter may not decock without positive direction to do so.  And further, this is not allowed once a round has gone down range. Rounds have gone down range. Can not decock. Can not transfer to other hand.

 

The shooter is still stuck with "out of style" for shooting the sixth round with the right hand instead of for cocking with both hands (except clearing a malfunction with both hands is allowed).

 

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3 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

Ah, had not found that

What!?

 

No apologies????

 

Guess the folks that have worked their butts off have done a pretty good job with the rulebook.

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If the shooter declares the malfunction after getting the hammer to cock (without firing it) he still gets 3 misses for the unfired rounds (15 seconds)
If the shooter fires the revolver once he gets it cocked, then decides to declare the malfunction, he gets the "P" + 2 misses (
20 seconds).

 

Another option would be to declare the malfunction and reload the functional revolver to complete the sequence.


IMO, there is no "unsportsmanlike behavior" involved (which would be a MDQ)

 

 

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
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So, we now have the penalty(s) for doing it the way originally presented. However if the shooter shoots right gun dry, holsters, then clears left gun with help from right hand, grip never leaving left hand, there is no penalty to finish string with the left hand. So if the participant is more spatially aware he/she can avoid any penalties and finish the revolver string.

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52 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

If the shooter declares the malfunction after getting the hammer to cock (without firing it) he still gets 3 misses for the unfired rounds (15 seconds)
If the shooter fires the revolver once he gets it cocked, then decides to declare the malfunction, he gets the "P" + 2 misses (
20 seconds).


IMO, there is no "unsportsmanlike behavior" involved (which would be a MDQ)

Plus the clock is still running (implied, as stage guidelines call for shotgun last).

 

The shooter could have called "bad gun" immediately at the first malfunction and moved on taking the 15 second hit.

 

Instead, the shooter attempted to clear the malfunction, and may have successfully cleared it, but now faces a 10 second procedural penalty plus the time expended attempting to clear the malfunction.

 

Nor can I see failure to attempt to fire apply for not attempting to fire the now possibly corrected firearm.

 

Looking at the definition of a procedural error:

 

Quote

 

Page 43

 

Unintentional errors caused by confusion or mistakes.

 

Well, that clearly applies. While the procedural does not apply for cocking with both hands since it was a malfunction, that it ended up in the wrong hand afterwards meets the definition, if the gun is now fired from that hand. It was an unintentional mistake. And only possible because it was this gun that failed. Had the right gun failed, the shooter finished off with the left gun and holstered it, then proceeded, there would be no violation.

 

Seems unfair. Fine. In a sense, the revolver is now staged incorrectly. Take the shot with the right hand, transfer the now fired gun (hammer down on a spent cartridge) to the left hand and take the last two shots.

 

Quote

 

Page 19:

 

Failure to stage firearms or ammunition at the designated position(s)/location(s) is the fault of the competitor and scored as a procedural unless the competitor is able to correct the situation unassisted, while in the process of completing the stage under time.

 

 

The shooter is not able to correct the situation unassisted except by taking the next -- and only the next shot -- with the right hand.

 

This is not now unintentional and it is not a mistake. It is the safest action available to the shooter.

 

Can't transfer the firearm cocked, can't decock. Can't require the shooter to correct the malfunction left-handed or one-handed (assuming shooter is right-handed), rules explicitly allow clearing malfunction two-handed.

 

If the shooter takes that one shot right-handed and then transfers back to the left hand, then no call. It was necessary due to clearing the firearm. This shot is also necessary since there is now a live round under the hammer. Safety rules must take precedence over procedural requirements. 

 

Or declare bad gun. Also no call.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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The "unassisted" statement refers to someone other than the shooter providing that assistance (e.g. T/O handing the shooter ammunition).
It does not apply to the OP situation (or any related scenarios).
There is no "
staging" involved, either.

 

I'm headed to the range.
Y'all can keep whackin' on this, but any questions regarding options and penalties have been covered.

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The options were laid out in the OP, so the manual was read and understood.  Some clarification was needed, for me, on using two hands to correct the malfunction.

 

I like to be able to help the shooter safely and not just give them penalties.   If this happens again, I can tell the shooter to keep the pistol in the left hand, clear the problem if the shooter can using the right hand and shoot it out.  Or, alternatively, declare the left gun broke, reload the right gun with the correct number of cartridges and shoot it out with the left hand.  This would be time consuming, but would work for someone wanting a clean match.

 

Thank you all for your comments.

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Another angle to kick around.

The pistol is suppose to be shot with the left hand.  It malfunctions and during the clearance process, is now being gripped by the right hand.  You are able to clear the malfunction and get the pistol cocked and your left hand is still touching the pistol.  Without losing contact with the pistol with the left hand, simply take over the grip from the right hand.  The argument is that the left hand has not left contact with the pistol since being cocked, therefore it has not been transferred.

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1 hour ago, Badlands Bob #61228 said:

Another angle to kick around.

The pistol is suppose to be shot with the left hand.  It malfunctions and during the clearance process, is now being gripped by the right hand.  You are able to clear the malfunction and get the pistol cocked and your left hand is still touching the pistol.  Without losing contact with the pistol with the left hand, simply take over the grip from the right hand.  The argument is that the left hand has not left contact with the pistol since being cocked, therefore it has not been transferred.

I'm afraid not.  PWB already covered that. If it was being gripped by the right hand, is subsequently cocked, and ends up being gripped by the left hand, that is a transfer and will incur the penalty.

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1 hour ago, Badlands Bob #61228 said:

Another angle to kick around.

The pistol is suppose to be shot with the left hand.  It malfunctions and during the clearance process, is now being gripped by the right hand.  You are able to clear the malfunction and get the pistol cocked and your left hand is still touching the pistol.  Without losing contact with the pistol with the left hand, simply take over the grip from the right hand.  The argument is that the left hand has not left contact with the pistol since being cocked, therefore it has not been transferred.

I like to see thinking.

 

Thinking about this claim versus mine, I would be appealing a 10 second procedural penalty, you would be appealing a stage disqualification. We would probably both lose our appeals.

 

But I do see how you could bring the claim... If a gun is not dropped as long as the shooter has contact with it, then does "in hand" require full contact with the grip?

 

Conversations like this might cause new things to be added to the shooters manual, like an update of the definition of "revolver in hand." Up until you brought up this angle, I would not have felt a need for such a clarification.

 

The current definition is:

 

Quote

 

Revolver in hand – when the muzzle of the revolver clears the mouth of the holster, or

breaks contact with a prop where it was staged.

 

I would just assume that meant holding it by the grip, but it does not actually say that.

 

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48 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I'm afraid not.  PWB already covered that. If it was being gripped by the right hand, is subsequently cocked, and ends up being gripped by the left hand, that is a transfer and will incur the penalty.

My position is that it was being held by both hands and I just removed the right hand and then fired it with the left hand.  Where does it say I have to hold the pistol by the grip to maintain possession?  I would propose that having physical contact with the gun with the left hand would constitute having possession of it.  At least joint possession with the right hand.

 

This theory is only viable if the left hand never leaves contact with the gun after it is cocked.  If you lose contact with the left hand, then you're screwed.  

 

Badlands Bob (who is really good at kicking dead horses)

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42 minutes ago, Badlands Bob #61228 said:

My position is that it was being held by both hands and I just removed the right hand and then fired it with the left hand.  Where does it say I have to hold the pistol by the grip to maintain possession?  I would propose that having physical contact with the gun with the left hand would constitute having possession of it.  At least joint possession with the right hand.

 

This theory is only viable if the left hand never leaves contact with the gun after it is cocked.  If you lose contact with the left hand, then you're screwed.  

 

Badlands Bob (who is really good at kicking dead horses)

That I can not find searching the rule book (searched on "hand", "transfer", "grip", and "cocked")

 

As to maintaining possession, a gun is not dropped until you lose contact with it completely.

 

I'm still appreciating there is no procedural for cocking the gun with two hands. Gun Fighter requires cocking one-handed.  But clearing a malfunction explicitly permits two hands and the gun ended up cocked as part of clearing the malfunction... Thus putting the shooter in a position with few options but to take an action resulting in a penalty.

 

I do see the shooter put himself in that position by trying to clear the malfunction rather than going with "bad gun" in the first place (3 misses is 15 seconds). Instead, there is the time clearing the malfunction, then the procedural for safely discharging the firearm in the "wrong" hand or the time hit of unloading one and reloading the other firearm to keep the run "clean." All of which seem to add up to more than the original 15 seconds.

 

But none of that is the responsibility of the range, TO, or other staff. It is still my opinion that a single "wrong-hand" shot procedural penalty should be set aside in the interests of safety.

 

But if I was that shooter, after respectfully asking for a reconsideration at the time, I would not pursue it to the match director level. That is assuming I was the shooter who attempted to clear this malfunction; I tend towards declaring the malfunction in the first place and keeping the stage moving. Keep the game fun.

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5 hours ago, Null N. Void said:

Or, alternatively, declare the left gun broke, reload the right gun with the correct number of cartridges and shoot it out with the left hand.  This would be time consuming, but would work for someone wanting a clean match.

 

Is this something one could actually do and not get penalized?  Never came across this, nor thought about it.

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1 hour ago, Badlands Bob #61228 said:

My position is that it was being held by both hands and I just removed the right hand and then fired it with the left hand.  Where does it say I have to hold the pistol by the grip to maintain possession?  I would propose that having physical contact with the gun with the left hand would constitute having possession of it.  At least joint possession with the right hand.

 

This theory is only viable if the left hand never leaves contact with the gun after it is cocked.  If you lose contact with the left hand, then you're screwed.  

 

Badlands Bob (who is really good at kicking dead horses)


Howdy, Bob! Hope all is well with you; haven’t seen you in a while.

As for changing hands with the revolver, though not specifically stated in the SHB, changing the revolver from one “hand” to the other means transferring from one “hand” that is gripping the revolver to the other “hand” gripping the revolver.

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19 minutes ago, Cemetery said:

 

Is this something one could actually do and not get penalized?  Never came across this, nor thought about it.

I found nothing about it in the rules, not prohibited. Clever.

 

I would not have thought of it either. I would have just declared "bad gun" in the first place. This whole discussion stems from an action I would not have taken.

 

But now comes the next question... How fast could I eject the 3 rounds from the bad gun, eject two spent casings from the good gun (three if I was not sure where the empty hole is, load the three live rounds and index them to the proper location to shoot (or go click click until I find a live round) recognizing the rules allow use of two hands when loading/unloading and that a transfer with the hammer down is legal... Could I think it through and do that in 15 seconds?

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If it's going for a clean match, it would be important.   One has already has lost time dealing with the pistol issue.  Reloading multiple rounds and hitting all the correct targets is almost priceless from the cool factor standpoint. 

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As a Gunfighter I know the rules of transferring a gun from one hand to another, I know what hand is gripping my gun, I know I can not transfer a cocked gun, it has been explained in ROI and ROII, if I make the mistake I take the penalty.  There is no appeal, there is no question, you can not transfer a cocked pistol from one hand to another. As the TO, if there is a question if it happened the benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter, if I am sure it happened I make the call.

 

Next shooter.

 

I will be teaching a ROI class and ROII class in November at ORSA in Oak Ridge, along with ROI at the TN State and our Regional.

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2 hours ago, Shamrock Sadie said:


Howdy, Bob! Hope all is well with you; haven’t seen you in a while.

As for changing hands with the revolver, though not specifically stated in the SHB, changing the revolver from one “hand” to the other means transferring from one “hand” that is gripping the revolver to the other “hand” gripping the revolver.

Hey Sadie,  I hope all is well with you and Knot Hardly Done.  I know you can't change hands with a cocked revolver.  It looked like they were running out of things to argue about so I thought I would help out.  I got it to page 2.B)

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The one we forget about, mostly because of the changes to the lever rule...but it still occasionally happens...

 

Shooter is shooting in the traditional style, right handed. Pulls right pistol and cocks it as the TO hollars HULL as there is an empty hull in the chamber of the shotgun. Shooter grips the revolver with their left hand, thumb on the top strap, finger around the bottom of the frame, and pulls the hull out with their right hand...

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