1897 shotgun

[sarcasmn]

I am about to retire from the police department and would like to try Wild Bunch shooting.  I found a 1897 still in the box.  Are they shootable right from the box or would it need to go to a gunsmith first?

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

A real Winchester new in the box, or a modern reproduction?

 

In either case, I believe that yes, you can shoot them right out of the box.   I do.

But...  A real NIB Winchester 97?   That'd be worth a fortune.

[Sarge]

Might need the magazine altered to hold that 6th round.

 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

12 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Might need the magazine altered to hold that 6th round.

 

 

That's a pet peeve of mine.   Why in the name of all that is reasonable to they write stages for 6 rounds when they require everyone to use a shotgun that has a factory capacity of 5?   It makes NO sense.   You are practically forcing people to have their guns modified, something that a lot of people don't want to do.

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

18 minutes ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

 

That's a pet peeve of mine.   Why in the name of all that is reasonable to they write stages for 6 rounds when they require everyone to use a shotgun that has a factory capacity of 5?   It makes NO sense.   You are practically forcing people to have their guns modified, something that a lot of people don't want to do.

That is a good question, might be good to ask it on the WB Wire, although those guys are over here as well.  The WB folks really wanted 7 rounds in the mag vs 5 because "that's the way the guns were designed" so on the '97, hmm?  If they wanna shoot 6, might be better to stoke 5 and load one on the clock.  

 

Some of the Chinese guns hold 6 (my TTN does)..  Had to cut a coil off the spring of my old solid frame '97.

 

To Sarcasmn, all I did to my chinese gun was loosen the hammer spring screw a tad.  Check out Marauder's site for how to do this and other '97 stuff:  http://marauder.homestead.com/irons.html

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

When I shoot Wild Bunch, which isn't all that often, I load five in the mag, cuz that's all it will hold, and then add the last one on the clock.   I always get asked why I don't modify my guns to take 6.  Well, the simple answer is, I don't want to modify my guns.   I like shooting them more or less stock.  That's not to say that I won't lengthen the chamber/forcing cone on an old gun to make it safe to use more modern ammo.  Although, to be honest, I just use shorter shells, usually all brass, but let that go.

So what do I have?        

 

A.  Winchester 93  {Yep, I've got one}

B.  Winchester 97

C.  Another Winchester 97

D.  Norinco Trench 97

E.  Norinco 93/97

 

All of them are as they came from the factory.  Well, one of the 97s is probably chopped.   It's got WPD stamped on the stock, so I imagine that it's a former police gun.   It has a 20" barrel, but it says it's got a full choke, which it clearly doesn't.   Point is, none of the five guns will take 6 rounds in the magazine.  

[Goody, SASS #26190]

17 minutes ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

When I shoot Wild Bunch, which isn't all that often, I load five in the mag, cuz that's all it will hold, and then add the last one on the clock.   I always get asked why I don't modify my guns to take 6.  Well, the simple answer is, I don't want to modify my guns.   I like shooting them more or less stock.  That's not to say that I won't lengthen the chamber/forcing cone on an old gun to make it safe to use more modern ammo.  Although, to be honest, I just use shorter shells, usually all brass, but let that go.

So what do I have?        

 

A.  Winchester 93  {Yep, I've got one}

B.  Winchester 97

C.  Another Winchester 97

D.  Norinco Trench 97

E.  Norinco 93/97

 

All of them are as they came from the factory.  Well, one of the 97s is probably chopped.   It's got WPD stamped on the stock, so I imagine that it's a former police gun.   It has a 20" barrel, but it says it's got a full choke, which it clearly doesn't.   Point is, none of the five guns will take 6 rounds in the magazine.  

That's a shame. I have 1, made in the last year of production. It holds 6 just as it came from the factory. I also have 4 Model 12's, they all hold 6 as well. You make it sound as though changing the mag spring and follower does irreparable harm to the gun.

[Sarge]

3 hours ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

 

That's a pet peeve of mine.   Why in the name of all that is reasonable to they write stages for 6 rounds when they require everyone to use a shotgun that has a factory capacity of 5?   It makes NO sense.   You are practically forcing people to have their guns modified, something that a lot of people don't want to do.

Wasn't trying to start a battle, just answer the OP's question.  He specifically said he wanted it set up for WB.  Since I don't shoot WB, I don't have a dog in the fight.  

[Lead Foot Luke]

I have found that the brand of shotgun shell can make the difference between 5 or 6 fitting in the magazine.  If I remember correctly, 6 Winchester AA's will go in my wife's 97, but the Remington Gun Club's are slightly longer and can only fit 5.  We haven't shot wild bunch lately, so I could have the brands mixed up.

[Badlands Bob #61228]

I have one of the Winchester solid frame 97's that dates to 1909.  It holds 6 without any modification.  Most of the original 97's I've seen around have been take down models.  Both of my Chinese 97's hold 6 rounds but they aren't take down models either.

[Kid Rich]

5 hours ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

 

That's a pet peeve of mine.   Why in the name of all that is reasonable to they write stages for 6 rounds when they require everyone to use a shotgun that has a factory capacity of 5?   It makes NO sense.   You are practically forcing people to have their guns modified, something that a lot of people don't want to do.

If you used the 2 1/2" shells they made when they made the 97's you would find they do indeed take 6.

kR

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

WB use to only let you load 5rnds in a 7rnd mag for the 1911.  

Agree about the 6 shell nonsense in a SG that was built for 5. 

Still, it's a fun game to play 

OLG 

[Three Foot Johnson]

If it's going to be for Wild Bunch only, buy a Model 12. When I used a '97, I would simply load a couple 2 1/2"ers in the tube with four 2 3/4"ers. I did finally modify one of them to hold 6 before I went with Model 12's. Simple mod, no big deal.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Like the "modification" is such a big deal...oh brother...

 

And why do folks feel this need to tell others what guns they own...wackawackawacka...

 

Phantom

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

I do run 2- 1/2" shells.   Either all brass Magtech or AA's that I have trimmed to length.  I do this because of the shorter chambers to be found in most of my cowboy shotguns.   That and the all brass ones are cool.

 

On the other hand, I suppose if you start with a 2- 1/2" AA and do a full folded star crimp, that would give you enough extra space, as opposed to the roll crimp that I use.   It is worth pondering.

 

And yes, while the modification is a simple one, it is a big deal.   To design a game where you all but require people to change their guns from the way they were made is not right.  It's a principle kind of thing.

And if you don't wanna tell others about your guns, that's your choice and more power to you.  But stop snarking on people of decide to talk about their guns in a a forum about shooting them.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

1 hour ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

And yes, while the modification is a simple one, it is a big deal.   To design a game where you all but require people to change their guns from the way they were made is not right.  It's a principle kind of thing

Once again, seems like you should just start your own game/organisation... Since you seem so dissatisfied with the existing one.

 

1 hour ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

And if you don't wanna tell others about your guns, that's your choice and more power to you.  But stop snarking on people of decide to talk about their guns in a a forum about shooting them.

I see... My opinion of people that feel a constant need to tell and/or show others on a public social media platform what guns they have is "snarky"...ooookay... Like one cannot affectively participate in this forum without sharing with a bunch of strangers pictures and lists of their firearms.

 

 

[DeaconKC]

1 hour ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

I do run 2- 1/2" shells.   Either all brass Magtech or AA's that I have trimmed to length.  I do this because of the shorter chambers to be found in most of my cowboy shotguns.   That and the all brass ones are cool.

 

On the other hand, I suppose if you start with a 2- 1/2" AA and do a full folded star crimp, that would give you enough extra space, as opposed to the roll crimp that I use.   It is worth pondering.

 

And yes, while the modification is a simple one, it is a big deal.   To design a game where you all but require people to change their guns from the way they were made is not right.  It's a principle kind of thing.

And if you don't wanna tell others about your guns, that's your choice and more power to you.  But stop snarking on people of decide to talk about their guns in a a forum about shooting them.

H.K. Well said, but I don't know if I would have said snarky...self inflated and arrogant, but not snarky...

[sarcasmn]

ok now that thats out of the way,  how do you modify a 97 and a model 12?

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

58 minutes ago, DeaconKC said:

H.K. Well said, but I don't know if I would have said snarky...self inflated and arrogant, but not snarky...

Personal attacks are not allowed here...pard...

 

But feel free to support your attack on my opinions... If you can...

[Three Foot Johnson]

4 hours ago, sarcasmn said:

ok now that thats out of the way,  how do you modify a 97 and a model 12?

A Model 12 really doesn't need anything - in their stock configuration, they hold six 2 3/4"ers and tend to be much smoother than a comparable stock '97. There is a spring & follower available for the '97 that will enable it to hold six 2 3/4"ers, and a heavy duty left side extractor and ejector spring from The Smith Shop or C&I is a worthwhile investment. These old guns tend to be really dirty inside, and complete disassembly, inspection, and a good cleaning is normally in order.

 

https://onlineoutpost.net/product/win-97-mag-spring-follower-take-down-6-round-conversion/

https://onlineoutpost.net/product/1897-left-extractor-cowboys-indian/

http://www.thesmithshop.com/lhextractor.html

[Ace_of_Hearts]

https://www.sassnet.com/wildbunch/forum/index.php