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Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967

Speaking of Muzzle Loaders...

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Here in California we are banned from using lead projectiles, even with muzzle loaders.

 

So - anyone have any good experiences with lead-free ammo?  Sabot?  Non-sabot ("bonded base/skirt")?  The Kid and I each have a .50 T/C Hawken, 1:48" twist as I recall.

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13 hours ago, Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967 said:

Here in California we are banned from using lead projectiles, even with muzzle loaders.

 

So - anyone have any good experiences with lead-free ammo?  Sabot?  Non-sabot ("bonded base/skirt")?  The Kid and I each have a .50 T/C Hawken, 1:48" twist as I recall.

Were we?

 

I never shot anything but pure lead ball or Minie bullets.  I/48 is a bit fast for round ball, but I usually used that unless I need something with more punch.  Buffalo Bullets had a great patten of lead bullet, kind of a more modern flat nosed Minie thing, but I still have (somewhere around here) a couple of unopened boxes of them.  Never saw the need for them.

 

My TC shot  75 grains of FFFg Goex black powder behind a pillow ticking patch wet down with Spit Patch.  

 

When I gave my TC to my son I got a Lyman Great Plains and got similar results.

 

Learn your gun and your load and it will serve you well.  This should hold true for any kind of projectile.

 

BTW, the last can of powder I bought has a price of $4.49 on the can...and I have enough for another twenty or so years of shooting.  I'll be 98 years old then and probably won't much care. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Forty Rod SASS 3935

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But... lead is illegal in California.  Even in front-stuffers.  :(

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I have a 1977 vintage 54 CVA Mountain Rifle that loves lead balls and pillow ticking. 

 

I’ve also shot Hornady sabot rounds, basically a 44 JHP in a plastic wrap, and got 3” groups at 100 yards. Yes, they still have some lead, but it leads me to believe you’ll find success with some digging and experimenting. 

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The three great metals of America....

Gold, Silver, and Lead.  The last one protects the first two.

 

I have read about lead substitutes that are out there.  Bismuth, and some other lead free metals.  Lead is not illegal here, so I have not tried them.

You might look some of them up, on-line, and see what is available. Bismuth is very close in characteristics to lead, but is supposed to be non-toxic...or more so than lead.  I have seen some non-lead advertisements in some of my gun magazines, so I know someone, somewhere is aware of the need to have

a lead substitute for you guys out there that have been forced to find a substitute.. 

 

 

Why is it that when politicians decide to do something, that they never come up with any kind of viable solution? 

And how come they can do this, without it being voted on by the public? 

I guess they can, since they were elected to office by the people out there. 

Are the military folks, on the various bases out there, also not using lead projectiles?    

 

I guess they outlawed lead so the politicians would feel safer, out there????

 

 

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If California has banned lead projectiles, what do the cowboy shooters use at their matches?

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Eventually you’ll only be allowed to count coup on em.
With a nerf coup stick. :angry:

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22 minutes ago, Buffalo Creek Law Dog said:

If California has banned lead projectiles, what do the cowboy shooters use at their matches?

 

So far lead is outlawed for hunting, but still legal for target shooting.

 

However, there is movement in the capital to "correct" this and make lead illegal for all shooting sports.  And if that is not bad enough, there is fear in some circles that the state might then require "cleanup" of all lead from shooting ranges.  This would undoubtedly not only bankrupt public shooting ranges and private clubs, but pretty much end shooting sports.

 

Here's a hint of what could be:

 

For many, many decades sportsmen in San Francisco enjoyed trap and skeet shooting on the shore of Lake Merced, inside the city limits:  The Lake Merced Gun Club was shut down in 2015.


 

Quote

 

SAN FRANCISCO (KCBS) – Cleaning up 60 years of lead bullets and clay ducks from the shooting range on the shore of Lake Merced could cost San Francisco taxpayers as much as $10 million, city officials said...

 

PUC chair Ed Harrington said his agency wants the gun club to share the pain, but the burden ultimately lies with the city because the lease contains no provisions for dealing with this kind of problem.

 

 

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I'd of course read about bismuth as a lead substitute, but never looked it up, which I just did.

 

It should continue to pass muster in California, because the Wiki article points out that while it is radioactive, the decay is very slow-- the half-life of the isotope is a billion times longer than the estimated age of the universe; thus it is considered stable!

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1 hour ago, Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967 said:

 

So far lead is outlawed for hunting, but still legal for target shooting.

 

However, there is movement in the capital to "correct" this and make lead illegal for all shooting sports.  And if that is not bad enough, there is fear in some circles that the state might then require "cleanup" of all lead from shooting ranges.  This would undoubtedly not only bankrupt public shooting ranges and private clubs, but pretty much end shooting sports.

 

Here's a hint of what could be:

 

For many, many decades sportsmen in San Francisco enjoyed trap and skeet shooting on the shore of Lake Merced, inside the city limits:  The Lake Merced Gun Club was shut down in 2015.


 

 

And still, people won't.....aw crap.  Never mind.  :(

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Hardpan, before this turns into another California bashing session.... been a while since I got the 50 front stuffer out. Years ago I was planning on hunting in Missouri with my cousins and I had been using some sabots that held 44 cal handgun bullets.  That opens up the whole world of handgun hunting bullets. CRS has me at the moment, I can’t recall the brand. 

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sorry - cant comment on - to  - about calif anymore now that ya all is totally off the chart in your laws , gotta get some real people running your state first , 

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On 9/14/2020 at 9:24 PM, Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967 said:

So far lead is outlawed for hunting, but still legal for target shooting.

 

Are they worried the animals will get lead poisoning? 

 

I guess you're only reasonable alternative is depleted uranium. 

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On 9/16/2020 at 10:28 PM, Ramblin Gambler said:

 

Are they worried the animals will get lead poisoning? 

 

I guess you're only reasonable alternative is depleted uranium. 

 

There's a lurid history.  Basically (and I could write pages on this), the claim has been for many years that condors were eating offal left behind by successful hunters and experiencing lead poisoning.  The state for many years pressed a program ("Operation Gut Pile") in the relatively small condor territory for responsible hunters to not leave behind offal; by and large, the hunting population obliged.  Didn't work; condors kept experiencing lead poisoning.  Hunters were blamed.

 

The state then totally banned the use of lead ammunition for hunting in the condor territory.  Didn't work; condors kept experiencing lead poisoning.  Hunters were still blamed.

 

So the next step was to completely ban the use of lead ammunition for hunting for the entire state - even places where condors had not been for hundreds or even thousands of years, if ever.  Guess what!  Didn't work; condors keep experiencing lead poisoning.  They even went so far as to claim that hunters were experiencing lead poisoning, so they were doing it for our own good!  And now they are working on outlawing the use of lead for all shooting sports, from .22 plinking to long-range target shooting and even skeet and trap.  And yes, even Cowboy Action Shooting.

 

Interesting that they will not acknowledge other sources of environmental lead in the "condor territory," including scientifically recognized "micro-trash" or even the presence of once active lead mine sites - at least ten of which are in Los Angeles County alone.

 

So, out of this arises the need for effective lead-free ammunition for muzzleloaders.  :(

 

                                                                             Condor.jpg.bd91014d6acfe04e178c09ff27a71f80.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967
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Hardpan asked a question about non- lead projectiles. He didn’t ask for a smart-assed political diatribe. :angry:

 

Hardpan, here is a link that has a couple of options for you. 
https://thebiggamehuntingblog.com/10-of-the-best-muzzleloader-bullets-for-hunters/

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HC 

 

  given the 1-48 twist , I think you should be able to use a conical , I am not sure if there is a lead free power belt , 

that is what I use in the inlines , I have not tried them in a side hammer , the put your one bullets in the plastic carrier , 

have not shown the acc. , the power belt has in my stuff , 

 

 CB 

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I took a nice doe with the .50 270 grain Federal Premium BOR Lock. I was using a Traditions Vortex inline with two triple 7 pellets. Center punched the heart and the deer dropped in place. The bullet completely penetrated.   

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midway is listing several choices. I have not used any of them in black powder but I was getting 1 1/2 in group with barnes ttsx in my 257. still playing with a few choices trying find what works best. so far fastest is bestest

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A 1:48" twist rate is good for round balls and conicals. Not great with either but good enough. Buy what you can find and play with different powder charges. Some projectiles act totally different ran hard vs slower. I used to own the TC Renegade. Same gun, no brass. Likes sabots if ran hard. 90 to 100 grains of BP. Round balls like 70-80. Conicals same charges as the sabots.

Good luck! 

Edited by Michigan Slim
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Also, you can get a barrel for that gun made just to run sabots and conicals. It has 1:32 twist rate. Green Mountain I believe made them.

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