What's your call here!

[Jackaroo, # 29989 252]

Shooter is second last for the day; shooters shoots the stage clean, gets confirmation from the RO on way to ULT it was clean. All spotters show clean.

Shooter clears guns returns to guncart and packs gear, pretty happy with his day.

Stage involved shooting from 4 tables,..... table edges are only 12 to 15" apart, legs are 5 to 6" in from the edge. Stage directions say shoot from behind table,! Shooter shoots sg moves left, taking sg with him to next table and restages, shoots rifle form far edge of table, takes rifle one big step left, stages rifle on next table and completes stage with pistols. Each position behind the table but maybe not whole body, but would have been 70 to 80% behind to place long guns on middle of table each time.

Shooters pack up and head to club house for drinks and dinner, and scores read out. All scores on Practiscore no paperwork.

On hearing scores and checking the scores on the ipad, above shooter notices a P on last stage.? Shooter enquires with a few who saw it and no P noticed.

On hearing the enquiry the scorer comes round to shooter and  whispers to shooter,  the Posse leader gave the shooter a P for not shooting behind the table!

He consulted only with the scorer (who is a relatively new shooter, and didn't advise him to advise the RO )), no consultation with spotters or RO at the time, gave the P because a spectator shooter mentioned to PL that shooter was not completely behind table.

A little confrontation developed at dinner with the shooter and PL,and when the shooter asked which table was it it? ......Reply was I cant't remember??

Had the scorer not advised the shooter of his discriminatory decision, he would be none the wiser today, as no intestinal  fortitude has been forthcoming by the PL.

Shooter was quite annoyed as the P altered the result quite substantially, but we weren't shooting for sheep stations,.. but the actions of his decisions are not good for the game.

 

 

[Phantom, SASS #54973 4,686]

Another SMH call... Where do these people come from???

 

A total BS call by the Posse Leader!

 

And did the instructions say the whole body must be behind the tables? My gawd, so much would depend on the viewing angle of the spotters... What a crazy decision!!!

[Tennessee williams 2,376]

Well, that's just nuts.

[Krazy Kajun 747]

Well, maybe we oughta start shooting for sheep stations!

 

Kajun

[Arizona Gunfighter 391]

Spotters and RO scored shooter as clean. Posse Leader should've consulted with RO and spotters before going to the score keeper to give the shooter a P.  Did stage instructions specifically say the whole body had to be behind the table? I probably would've given the shooter the benefit of the doubt and scored it a clean stage since the PL couldn't remember which table it was. That's my .02 and I'm a new RO1.

[Phantom, SASS #54973 4,686]

Please tell me how a match can consistently determine if a shooter is completely behind a table.

[Smokestack SASS#87384 1,352]

5 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Please tell me how a match can consistently determine if a shooter is completely behind a table.

Moats...or maybe some lava. 

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783 2,721]

The posse leader is exceeding his authority by overruling a TO and 3 spotters. Spectators are to have ZERO input. 

[Barry Sloe 393]

From the ROI:

"The Posse Marshal & Deputy

  The Posse Marshal

• Is in charge of a posse and are required to ensure all positions are manned to safely and efficiently run the posse through each course of fire.
• Ensures that all rules and regulations are being followed.
• Must understand all stages, conduct a walk-through, and answer all questions before each stage.
• Will appoint at least one Posse Marshal deputy to assist if one is not assigned."

Also from the ROI:

the last line under "The Timer Operator"

• Final assessment regarding the assessment of penalties is made by the TO.

The posse marshal/leader is there to ensure that everything goes smoothly and they are the first line in disputes.  I see NOTHING that gives a posse leader the authority to assess penalties when they are not one of the Range Officers.

 

Perhaps PWB can shed some wisdom.

 

BS

 

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783 2,721]

1 minute ago, Barry Sloe said:

Perhaps PWB can shed some wisdom. 

 

No need. It’s already clear. 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489 1,281]

12 minutes ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

Moats...or maybe some lava. 

Or moats with lava flowing into them. 

 

Some of the clubs I shoot with will have in the instructions that at least one foot, or your belt buckle, must be behind the table or past a certain point.  That is fairly easily enforceable.

[Yusta B. 1,444]

Spectators don't get to make a call ! BS scoring.

[Phantom, SASS #54973 4,686]

36 minutes ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

Or moats with lava flowing into them. 

 

Some of the clubs I shoot with will have in the instructions that at least one foot, or your belt buckle, must be behind the table or past a certain point.  That is fairly easily enforceable.

Actually it's not because the call is still subjective... Leads to inconsistent calls.

 

Where exactly is the belt buckle? The whole foot??? Where is the person standing relative to the shooter when they make the call??

 

Phantom

 

[Tennessee williams 2,376]

Ours is always "close enough to ground".

[Phantom, SASS #54973 4,686]

Screw a fricken piece of wood on the side of a table... There, now you have a point you have to pass with your muzzle... Lots of ways to get shooters to a position.

[Captain Bill Burt 3,225]

As other's have said, the TO is the authority on Ps, not the PM.  That should have been bumped up to the MD and overruled.  The question of whether he was behind the table 'enough' wasn't the PM's decision to make.

 

SHB page 24-25

During the course of fire, a shooter may on occasion incur penalties which need to be assessed. The immediate authority on the stage to that end is the Chief Range Officer/Timer Operator (CRO/TO), assisted by the input of the spotters.

 

In the event a competitor feels a CRO/TO’s ruling is in error or has been unfairly assessed, and the firearms have been made safe and unloaded, the ruling may be politely and calmly appealed, initially to the CRO/TO and/or Posse Marshal, and only by the competitor involved. The discussion should be taken off the firing line so as not to incur any delays in the shooting flow, involving only those officials on the line at that time and the shooter (the shooter, CRO/TO and spotters).

[Matthew Duncan 1,332]

IMHO the Shooter got screwed.

 

In life sometimes you're the windshield and sometimes your the bug. 

[Phantom, SASS #54973 4,686]

54 minutes ago, Matthew Duncan said:

IMHO the Shooter got screwed.

 

In life sometimes you're the windshield and sometimes your the bug. 

But not in a competition where there are specific rules governing the issue at hand.

[Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L 2,142]

2 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

But not in a competition where there are specific rules governing the issue at hand.

 

but  you still can be the bug as this thread shows

[Dutch Coroner 190]

As others have said, complete BS call.  Where's the MD?

[Marauder SASS #13056 1,060]

 

[Assassin 1,577]

That isn't right. I'd be a little upset over a subjective call. If a shooter is close enough to pick up or ground a gun that's close enough.

If folks are writing scenarios that are overly strict that stage writer needs to hang it up. Today everything is about options, I like options.

 

 

[Jackaroo, # 29989 252]

7 hours ago, Dutch Coroner said:

As others have said, complete BS call.  Where's the MD?

The PL was the MD !

[Colorado Coffinmaker 3,457]

 

PLUS ONE too Phantom.

 

Posse Leader/MD is . . . . . what a Schmuck

[oak creek martin 110]

Personally I think I’d have a talk with the match director in the parking lot. Sounds like a small minded man with a big ego. What a schmuck call!

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 870]

Garbage call! Posse leaders not performing RO (or spotter) duties have no authority to make this call, never mind the "spectator", that's laughable.

All shooters vote... all in favor... call overturned, next. LOL

PL needs to take a step back and think why they are an MD in the first place and what goes into that.

[Phantom, SASS #54973 4,686]

2 hours ago, Jackaroo, # 29989 said:

The PL was the MD !

How convenient...

[Creeker, SASS #43022 2,662]

I much prefer the instructions that I installed at Eldorado - that use upright markers/ barriers.

Regardless of body placement - the rounds from a given gun must pass a designated side of a marker (usually a 6ft piece of pvc pipe standing upright).  

 

This eliminates foot faults and "behind" subjectivity - if the rounds pass by the correct side of the marker/ barrier the shooter is good enough.

 

It also more consistently places the shooter where you actually want them - negating the longer shooters ability of reach their gun from a further distance - because with barriers and correct target angles - they will still have to get body placement to where the rounds are passing the barrier correctly and the muzzle is directed to the target.

[Shooting Bull 1,960]

16 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

I much prefer the instructions that I installed at Eldorado - that use upright markers/ barriers.

Regardless of body placement - the rounds from a given gun must pass a designated side of a marker (usually a 6ft piece of pvc pipe standing upright).  

 

This eliminates foot faults and "behind" subjectivity - if the rounds pass by the correct side of the marker/ barrier the shooter is good enough.

 

It also more consistently places the shooter where you actually want them - negating the longer shooters ability of reach their gun from a further distance - because with barriers and correct target angles - they will still have to get body placement to where the rounds are passing the barrier correctly and the muzzle is directed to the target.

 

This X 1,000.  Eldorado used to use hoops to designate shooting positions.  Both feet had to be inside the hoops.  That put taller shooters like myself in an uncomfortable shooting position.  Creeker's fix was and still is perfect.  "Rounds must pass by left side of upright marker." or "Rounds must pass by right side of upright marker."  Gives each and every shooter the opportunity to assume a comfortable shooting position while still being where the stage writer wants them to be. Where tables are necessary for a stage simply put the marker at the end of the table.  

[The Outlaw Travis James 87]

On 9/6/2020 at 10:51 PM, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Please tell me how a match can consistently determine if a shooter is completely behind a table.

I shoot at a club in Florida where the MD is very anal about being completely behind whatever prop, fence, or table the shooting position is.  He goes so far as to drag lines in the sand with his boots.  BUT, he always reiterates that your feet MUST BE INSIDE THE LINES or it will be called a P.  Although, I have never seen it called there.

[Phantom, SASS #54973 4,686]

5 minutes ago, The Outlaw Travis James said:

I shoot at a club in Florida where the MD is very anal about being completely behind whatever prop, fence, or table the shooting position is.  He goes so far as to drag lines in the sand with his boots.  BUT, he always reiterates that your feet MUST BE INSIDE THE LINES or it will be called a P.  Although, I have never seen it called there.

You don't what to know how I feel about this MD's position...

[The Outlaw Travis James 87]

1 minute ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

You don't what to know how I feel about this MD's position...

I am not saying it is right, I am just elucidating what he does.  We all know about it and it has become somewhat of a joke.  I usually start with one foot outside the line when he is timing me to mess with him.  He ALWAYS sees it and says something to me.  Like I said, I have never seen it called there before. 

[Jackaroo, # 29989 252]

Whatever its called it should be called on the line by the RO, not penalised after quietly without notice.

[Captain Bill Burt 3,225]

 

10 hours ago, The Outlaw Travis James said:

I shoot at a club in Florida where the MD is very anal about being completely behind whatever prop, fence, or table the shooting position is.  He goes so far as to drag lines in the sand with his boots.  BUT, he always reiterates that your feet MUST BE INSIDE THE LINES or it will be called a P.  Although, I have never seen it called there.

Sounds like a club to avoid.

[Jefro, SASS#69420 427]

3 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

 

Sounds like a club to avoid.

Yep, we use if you can touch the table yer there