Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum
Nickel City Dude

Miroku Winchester possible head space problem

Recommended Posts

I have a new Winchester Miroku 1873 and the lever needs a little extra umph to get it to close at the end of the stroke.  At first I thought it was the trigger safety spring but upon closer examination I found that the bolt was touching the chamber and then the extra umph was needed to finish raising the lever.  I think that the head space is wrong on the gun.  It chambers and fires OK but even without a round in the chamber that extra umph is necessary to close the bolt.  Is this common on the Miroku 1873’s?  It doesn’t happen on my Uberti 1873.  Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Need to take a little metal off the front of the back of the bolt where it comes against the frame/receiver. 

That is what fixed mine. 

Edited by Thunder Creek Kid
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Thunder Creek Kid said:

off the front of the back of the bolt

 

Two contradictory directions - perhaps would help OP to be made a little more clear.

GJ

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hard to believe it is headspace if it does it without a shell in there, as the bolt wold have plenty of space between it and the barrel/chamber.  Extractor bottoming out maybe? Or something inside?

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, Nickel City Dude said:

I found that the bolt was touching the chamber

Dude,

 

Are you saying there is no space between the bolt face and the rear of the chamber opening?  If so, there is a problem with head space.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Tex Jones, SASS 2263 said:

Dude,

 

Are you saying there is no space between the bolt face and the rear of the chamber opening?  If so, there is a problem with head space.

Yep, that seams to be what is happening.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was going to add, just as you responded, that you should take off one of the side plates and work the action to see  if the links are fully extended when the lever is closed.  If there is a cartridge in the chamber and the links are not fully extended there is a problem, which can result in the bolt snapping back, when the round is fired.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is just a new gun. You need to be more aggressive with the lever Than with an Uberti.  Work the action like you are under attack and it will smooth out.  I just went through that problem last weekend. At first I had to take it off my should to work the lever as the next round did not want to rise up.  After I finally got tough with it and showed it who boss no more problem. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Tex Jones, SASS 2263 said:

I was going to add, just as you responded, that you should take off one of the side plates and work the action to see  if the links are fully extended when the lever is closed.  If there is a cartridge in the chamber and the links are not fully extended there is a problem, which can result in the bolt snapping back, when the round is fired.

TJ

I did as you suggested and while the plates were off the left toggle assembly came off and the lever worked as it should.  Perhaps the toggle is the problem because when I put the left toggle back on, the lever needed that extra umph to close.  With both the toggles in place and that extra umph is exerted on the lever the links are lined up correctly.

I have a call into Winchester in the hopes that they will send me a new toggle and that will cure the problem.

NCD

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I talked to Winchester and refuse to send me a toggle and they also refused to sell me one.  My only recourse is to send it back to Winchester for repair.  They told me that it could take up to 6 weeks to get it back.  At least they sent me a UPS shipping label because it is a new gun.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

While there is some inconvenience, giving it back to Winchester is your best answer.  They (Winchester) owe you warranty.  If you mess with it, voids the warranty.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If the face of the bolt touches the chamber with no cartridge there should be no way that the bolt could close on a cartridge and fire.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It only looked to me like the bolt was touching the chamber.  A cartridge will chamber and fire just fine but the lever is hard to work for the last ¼ inch.  I am sending it to Winchester for repair.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Usually a good choice.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well I called Winchester today to find out if they had had a chance to look at my gun.  He told me that they are sending it back to me un-repaired because they feel the gun is working as intended.  It's not working correct but after spending a bunch of time arguing with the guy I realized that I was not going to get satisfaction from him.  I have PMed Thunder Creek Kid to get a more detailed explanation as to what he did to fix the problem.  I am not a happy camper when it comes to Winchester repair service. 

  • Sad 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Does it do that with reloads or factory ammo, or both? My two Miroku 73's are VERY finicky about ammo and I chamber check each reloaded round. Mine are both 44-40.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Boulder Canyon Bob# 32052L said:

Does it do that with reloads or factory ammo, or both? My two Miroku 73's are VERY finicky about ammo and I chamber check each reloaded round. Mine are both 44-40.

It does it even if there is no cartridge in the chamber.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, Nickel City Dude said:

It does it even if there is no cartridge in the chamber.

 

Take a sharpie and color the extractor and cartridge tab to see if they are hitting or binding in their respective slots in the barrel.

 

Have you cycled the action with the side plates off? Could the links be rubbing on the loading gate screw?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Nickel City Dude said:

It does it even if there is no cartridge in the chamber.

 

Then it cannot be a headspace problem as the bolt head would just be hanging in the air and there would be no resistance to closing caused by tight headspace.   If you can't figure out what it may be sticking on take it to someone that is familiar with toggle link rifles.  They are very simple mechanisms and some detective work will find the problem. In all candor some of the things your have said indicate you are not an expert on these rifles.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

Take a sharpie and color the extractor and cartridge tab to see if they are hitting or binding in their respective slots in the barrel.

 

Have you cycled the action with the side plates off? Could the links be rubbing on the loading gate screw?

 

With the left toggle out of the action the lever works like it is suppose to.  I really believe that there is a problem with the left toggle.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Nickel City Dude said:

With the left toggle out of the action the lever works like it is suppose to. 

 

Then I would smoke the left toggle link (or mark-up with a Sharpie) and run the action 10 times, then look for what is scraping off the black.  Good chance the link is a little large at SOME spot.

 

Good luck, GJ

Edited by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have 3 Winchester/Miroku's ... one '73 and two '66's

All three Actions were extremely tight when you closed the Lever....

As you stated in your OP you had to give the lever a "little extra umph to get it to close at the end of the stroke."

 

The problem on all 3 of mine turned out to be the Face of the Bolt right where it hits the Frame as the Action closes.

There was too much interference between the Frame and the Flats on the Bolt,

the flat area just in front of where the Links pivot, needed to be filed down by about .003 or .004 

That allowed the Toggles to move freely and the Bolt to lock up properly.

Immediately the Actions were working exactly as designed.

 

Once that was fixed I was able to get em Short Stroked and Slicked Up and they All Run like "Scalded a$$ Apes" as the old saying goes :D

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Silver Sam, SASS #34718L

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

^_^  I'd like to add a "Chime In Here."  After Changing out a Breach Block (bolt) on a Uberti (change to the new "kit") the rifle exhibited exactly your malady.  The problem turned out to be the fit of the Toggle Link into the pivot recess in the back of the Bolt.  The link didn't fit into the radius of the bolt.  Had to relieve that radius for the link to pivot into lock-up smoothly.  Just an additional thought.  Maybe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

^_^  I'd like to add a "Chime In Here."  After Changing out a Breach Block (bolt) on a Uberti (change to the new "kit") the rifle exhibited exactly your malady.  The problem turned out to be the fit of the Toggle Link into the pivot recess in the back of the Bolt.  The link didn't fit into the radius of the bolt.  Had to relieve that radius for the link to pivot into lock-up smoothly.  Just an additional thought.  Maybe.

Thanks for the input.  I am going to have to take a sharp eyed look into that left toggle when I get the gun back from Winchester.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Silver Sam, SASS #34718L said:

I have 3 Winchester/Miroku's ... one '73 and two '66's

All three Actions were extremely tight when you closed the Lever....

As you stated in your OP you had to give the lever a "little extra umph to get it to close at the end of the stroke."

 

The problem on all 3 of mine turned out to be the Face of the Bolt right where it hits the Frame as the Action closes.

There was too much interference between the Frame and the Flats on the Bolt,

the flat area just in front of where the Links pivot, needed to be filed down by about .003 or .004 

That allowed the Toggles to move freely and the Bolt to lock up properly.

Immediately the Actions were working exactly as designed.

 

Once that was fixed I was able to get em Short Stroked and Slicked Up and they All Run like "Scalded a$$ Apes" as the old saying goes :D

 

 

Thanks for the input, but how can the fact that when the left toggle is out of the gun the lever works as it is suppose too and the same bolt is hitting the same chamber opening?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Nickel City Dude

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/4/2020 at 4:56 PM, Nickel City Dude said:

I talked to Winchester and refuse to send me a toggle and they also refused to sell me one.  My only recourse is to send it back to Winchester for repair.  They told me that it could take up to 6 weeks to get it back.  At least they sent me a UPS shipping label because it is a new gun.

As much as it sucks, this is the best course of action.

 

Except for an overly strong lever safety spring, this rifle should work great in stock form.

 

After you are sure there is no problem with the gun in stock form, then you can void the warranty by changing out that damn overly strong lever safety spring. But not until the rifle is "factory" right.

 

And as far as six weeks are concerned, I spent twice that trying to find leather for my revolvers before ordering a rig that will take at least six weeks to arrive. Trying to go fast in this sport is both expensive and slow.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Nickel City Dude said:

 

Dude.... On 2 of mine After the first filing on both sides of the Bolt, one toggle was freed up and the other side was still locking up.

So I filed another .002 or so on the side of the Bolt that the Toggle was locking on and that side freed up.

 

It worked for Me !!!!

 

 

 

 

Edited by Silver Sam, SASS #34718L

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In my earlier post I was not trying to be cruel and heartless.  As you have already found out getting parts for a Winchester 73 is difficult.  The point of my post was to not remove metal from any parts unless and until you are certain what the problem is.  If you ruin a part you may have a tough time trying to replace it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Had the very same problem so changed bolts with another miroku I have to start process of elimination. Did not change anything. My bolt also was hitting front of receiver but not the chamber, headspace was fine. Then switched the toggle links with my original bolt and it worked fine. Put the problem bolt in my other miroku and it ran fine. Started to examine the toggle links and the problem ones were not quite right. They were a little different shape than the problem ones and they had a little bit more room to over center so to speak. As i worked the lever on problem ones found that the toggle links were locking up before lever even hit the safety and that the bolt still had clearance. The solution after much looking and changing things with other rifle was to take off a small bit of metal on toggles where they come together when lever is closed. I took a very slight bit off with dremel running at slow speed then refit. After that I hand filed the links doing a little at a time and refitting each time until everything worked the way it was supposed to. Takes some time but it is what made it work and would bet you have the same problem. Numrich has used toggles for the miroku but if you trust yourself the fix is fairly easy.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

MB

Thanks for the input.  The gun is on its way back from Winchester un-repaired.  They claim it is working the way it was suppose to work.  I think they are full of @$#%.  I think that the gunsmith at Winchester that looked at it was either incompetent or just lazy and didn't want to put the time into this gun to make it right.  When I get it back I will be taking a long hard look at that left toggle to see where it is binding.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

 

Then I would smoke the left toggle link (or mark-up with a Sharpie) and run the action 10 times, then look for what is scraping off the black.  Good chance the link is a little large at SOME spot.

 

Good luck, GJ

This should find the interference. Use a fine stone instead of a file to relieve the interference.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tried couple of different stones and did not relieve enough, that is why used a small diamond file evntually.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When you pull the toggle work it in your hands and you will see where it is contacting, that is where you need to remove a little bit so the lever can work freely.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A looong time ago, in what seems like a galaxy (as a matter of fact, it was a Ford Galaxy station wagon...but I digress), I had purchased an original Winchester '73.  On taking it down for cleaning, I found the knuckle of one toggle link was cracked.  This I found out was not an uncommon problem with the '73's. It was due to asymmetrical force on the toggle due to the way the loading port was cut...IIRC!  What to do?  As it happened, Val Forgett at Navy Arms had just started importing replicas of the '73, probably made by Uberti.  As I was writing an article on the '73, I contacted Val and asked if he possibly had a toggle link assembly, which I would be glad to pay for.  Instead, he sent me a pair.  When I went to install them, I found they wouldn't quite fit without forcing the lever closed.  The interference was between the rear half of one of the links and the cut in the rear of the bolt.  I don't recall exactly what I used, but I think it was a combination of files and stones, carefully rounding the rear surface of the link or links until the action worked with just a little "feel". 

 

I think MB's suggestion is the way to go.  Just take it slow. Do one toggle link at a time.

Best of luck! Stay well and safe!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Coming from a bolt action background and getting used to this game, I am still suprised at the amount of issues both low and high end lever actions have out of the box.  Also how casually owners accept having to play home gunsmith with them. Particularly Rossi's,  compare them to similar price point guns and even chicom semi-autos have less issues. When it comes to guns worth over $1000 in limited runs,  there is no excuse for action mechanical issues- it should have one guy at least function testing them at the plant.  Italy and Japan are not 3rd world countries, both countries have other manufacturers quality testing shotguns and bolt actions before export. I can only guess as a market force what it comes down to is lever action owners demand less quality. I wonder if the sport of cowboy is partly a driver here, being it involves a lot of gun customisation and modification, the factories know they can get away with shipping a raw product.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.