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When is a rifle considered dropped?

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Trying to learn all the nuances to the rules here. Finished with my rifle and was setting it down on a cradle the barrel slipped off and nose dived into the dirt the butt stayed in the rear of the cradle in the air (mainly because of the long barrel), leaving only the muzzle touching the dirt. The muzzle was pointed down range it just fell straight down with the butt remaining in the cradle. How do you decided when a rifle is dropped?  

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If it's touching the ground or otherwise out of your immediate control it's dropped. At least that's my understanding...

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3 minutes ago, J.S. Sooner, SASS #73526 said:

Not dropped if slipped off prop. MSV if left open/empty and where muzzle didn't break 170.

That can also be prop failure, and that's a no-call.

OLG

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Rifle was open and empty, and didn't break the 170. What comes to mind is sometimes we stage rifles vertical with the butt touching the ground so it cant be considered dropped by  just it touching the ground. Some people I have seen have let go of the rifle a little early and it drops butt down but by luck it comes to rest vertical against the prop where it was supposed to be staged, so there must be some additional considerations. I have also seen where a person sets down a rifle and it  bounces into the air and by chance lands back on the table but not where they set it down. In both cases the rifle wasn't considered dropped. So what I would like to know what combination of things must happen to consider it dropped. 

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Shooters Handbook page 45

 

Dropped firearm – a firearm that has left the shooter’s control and comes to rest at a location or position other than where it was intended.

 

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4 hours ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

Shooters Handbook page 45

 

Dropped firearm – a firearm that has left the shooter’s control and comes to rest at a location or position other than where it was intended.

 

 

So the next time I drop a pistol, just yell "I meant to do that!" and I won't get another MDQ!!!

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I reckon the rifle my mate let slip out of his hands as we were flying in a Huey over the Jungle Training School was pretty well dropped:blush:

 

Unfortunately we never found it to check if he broke the 170:D

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7 hours ago, Make do said:

Trying to learn all the nuances to the rules here. Finished with my rifle and was setting it down on a cradle the barrel slipped off and nose dived into the dirt the butt stayed in the rear of the cradle in the air (mainly because of the long barrel), leaving only the muzzle touching the dirt. The muzzle was pointed down range it just fell straight down with the butt remaining in the cradle. How do you decided when a rifle is dropped?  

 

Was your hand still on it?  If it slipped like that and the was still in contact with the hand, then no call.  I don't even think you have to pick it up. 

 

2 hours ago, Boomstick Bruce said:

 

So the next time I drop a pistol, just yell "I meant to do that!" and I won't get another MDQ!!!

 

I do believe this is the only case where the TO gets to interpret the shooter's intent.  As long as it's otherwise safe (ie didn't sweep anyone or break the 170), I think it oughta be a no call if it lands on the ground.  The ground is a legal place to stage or restage our firearms.  It's just that nobody likes to bend over that far, so they build tables. 

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All of this just reinforces the need to supply a good place to stage/re-stage all firearms. The dropped gun issue has had a long road, with a few turns and twist over the years. I think the current rule is the best. In the case given by the OP, if his hand was off of the gun, then it appears to be a gun that slipped and fell with the muzzle down range... I.e., a 10 sec Safety. 

 

Snakebite

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8 hours ago, Major Crimes said:

I reckon the rifle my mate let slip out of his hands as we were flying in a Huey over the Jungle Training School was pretty well dropped:blush:

 

Unfortunately we never found it to check if he broke the 170:D

Or,

In Basic (1970) when it fell through the hole in the latrine.  They didn't mention the 170 Rule as it was fished out of the muck.

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Hand was off the gun - but next time I will shout I meant to do that :)

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A rifle is dropped when you have to pick it up off the ground and nock the dirt off the barrel. It is prop failure when you  have to pick the rack up and knock the dirt off it also.  :)

Edited by Major BS Walker Regulator
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15 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

That can also be prop failure, and that's a no-call.

OLG

Only if the prop was defective and didn't operate as intended.

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Slipped? Prop failure? Did they stop and fix the prop? Did anyone else have problems with it? Wasn't there, didn't see the prop, but my guess would be that it was a "dropped " gun. What was the call make at the time?

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12 hours ago, Boomstick Bruce said:

 

So the next time I drop a pistol, just yell "I meant to do that!" and I won't get another MDQ!!!

 

Yeah, let us know how that works our for ya!

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The call was dropped gun. I don't think I can blame the prop. Prop had two cutouts one for the barrel and one for the stock. Both were rounded, so if you didn't put the barrel into the cut out it would slip to the side and fall same with the stock. I hit the stock cutout but missed ever so slightly the barrel cutout.   I was just curious that the gun only fell half way to the ground (only the tip of the muzzle touching the ground) and it stayed perfectly pointed in the same direction I put it. After all 10 seconds is 10 seconds

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18 hours ago, Make do said:

Trying to learn all the nuances to the rules here. Finished with my rifle and was setting it down on a cradle the barrel slipped off and nose dived into the dirt the butt stayed in the rear of the cradle in the air (mainly because of the long barrel), leaving only the muzzle touching the dirt. The muzzle was pointed down range it just fell straight down with the butt remaining in the cradle. How do you decided when a rifle is dropped?  

 

Here you said it slipped off.

 

18 hours ago, Make do said:

Rifle was open and empty, and didn't break the 170. What comes to mind is sometimes we stage rifles vertical with the butt touching the ground so it cant be considered dropped by  just it touching the ground. Some people I have seen have let go of the rifle a little early and it drops butt down but by luck it comes to rest vertical against the prop where it was supposed to be staged, so there must be some additional considerations. I have also seen where a person sets down a rifle and it  bounces into the air and by chance lands back on the table but not where they set it down. In both cases the rifle wasn't considered dropped. So what I would like to know what combination of things must happen to consider it dropped. 

 

More information that it was empty and didn't break the 170.  These two lead me to my statement of a gun that slipped off without breaking the 170.  That would earn you a MSV 10 second penalty. 

 

1 hour ago, Make do said:

The call was dropped gun. I don't think I can blame the prop. Prop had two cutouts one for the barrel and one for the stock. Both were rounded, so if you didn't put the barrel into the cut out it would slip to the side and fall same with the stock. I hit the stock cutout but missed ever so slightly the barrel cutout.   I was just curious that the gun only fell half way to the ground (only the tip of the muzzle touching the ground) and it stayed perfectly pointed in the same direction I put it. After all 10 seconds is 10 seconds

 

The call was a dropped gun?   The penalty for that would be a SDQ not 10 seconds. 

 

STAGE DISQUALIFICATION PENALTY (SDQ) page 23

- Any dropped unloaded firearm on the firing line.
- Long guns that slip, fall, and break the 170°.

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   oops     

 

Edited by Yusta B.

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Don't take it too hard. One of the top shooters at regionals dropped a gun and was MDQ'ed two years in a row. And to top it off, he was the MD. 

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16 hours ago, J.S. Sooner, SASS #73526 said:

The call was a dropped gun?   The penalty for that would be a SDQ not 10 seconds. 

No, he said it didn't break the 170.

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Page 23 of the shooters handbook

 

Minor Safey Violation (MSV)

Open, empty long guns that slip and fall – but do not break the 170° safety rule
or sweep anyone.

 

Stage Disqualification Penalty (SDQ)

Any dropped unloaded firearm on the firing line.

 

Page 43

Dropped firearm – a firearm that has left the shooter’s control and comes to rest at a
location or position other than where it was intended.

 

It has been clarified that if a shooter releases control of a gun and it is in continuous motion then it is a DROPPED firearm....ie a rifle is restaged on a table and it continues to slide after the shooter releases it and it goes off the end of the table. Even if the barrel doesn't break the 170 it's still a DROPPED firearm and a SDQ

 

If a gun is released by the shooter and is stationary THEN starts to move it has SLIPPED....ie a rifle is placed on a hay bale and is not moving then it starts to slide off the hay bale. If the barrel does not break the 170 it is a MSV.

 

Stan

 

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52 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

No, he said it didn't break the 170.

 

STAGE DISQUALIFICATION PENALTY (SDQ) page 23

- Any dropped unloaded firearm on the firing line.
- Long guns that slip, fall, and break the 170°.

 

170 is irreverent if the gun was dropped. 

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3 hours ago, J.S. Sooner, SASS #73526 said:

 

STAGE DISQUALIFICATION PENALTY (SDQ) page 23

- Any dropped unloaded firearm on the firing line.
- Long guns that slip, fall, and break the 170°.

 

170 is irreverent if the gun was dropped. 

Yeah yeah...I was thinking the gun slipped.

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