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JohnWesleyHardin

Hammer down on live round

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If a pistol misfires, hammer hits primer, and doesn't go off, is that round a live round for the purpose of a DQ.  (Hammer down on live round)

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3 minutes ago, JohnWesleyHardin said:

If a pistol misfires, hammer hits primer, and doesn't go off, is that round a live round for the purpose of a DQ.  (Hammer down on live round)

Yes.

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6 minutes ago, JohnWesleyHardin said:

If a pistol misfires, hammer hits primer, and doesn't go off, is that round a live round for the purpose of a DQ.  (Hammer down on live round)

My question would be simple: Would you feel comfortable looking down the barrel of that gun?

 

Phantom

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26 minutes ago, JohnWesleyHardin said:

If a pistol misfires, hammer hits primer, and doesn't go off, is that round a live round for the purpose of a DQ.  (Hammer down on live round)

 

Not an automatic DQ.  Most R.O.s would tell the shooter to ground the gun.  So, it depends on if the shooter holstered it, declared a malfunction. or not.  

The shooter also has the option of loading another round and firing that, if they're trying to save a clean match.  Then hammer is down on an empty case.

 

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Lets not put a bunch of theoretical "But what If" and "Maybe If" into the question.  It's simple.  The hammer is "DOWN" on a live round.  If the gun isn't grounded, it's a DQ.  Next!!

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23 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 If the gun isn't grounded, it's a DQ.

If the gun is grounded AND there is either a shooter or TO declaration of "malfunction" or a TO command to ground the gun, then it's not a SDQ.    Just throwing gun down is not sufficient to avoid a SDQ. 

 

Good luck, GJ

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5 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

Lets not put a bunch of theoretical "But what If" and "Maybe If" into the question.  It's simple.  The hammer is "DOWN" on a live round.  If the gun isn't grounded, it's a DQ.  Next!!

 

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Don't get much dumber than that.

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Good grief, that may have been the last thing he ever looked at. What the hell did he expect to see?

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This thread made me curious..

I see shooters  accidentally slip hammer and the round doesn't go bang..

They don't stop and cycle all the way around to find the round they missed..

For that instant the hammer is down on a live round??

 Didn't go bang??

Until they cycled all the way around again??

and it's a No Call??

 

Please fill me in.. What's the difference 

 

Rance ;)

Thinkin I ain't tryin to be a smart a$$:huh: just wonderin..:wacko:

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, Rance - SASS # 54090 said:

This thread made me curious..

I see shooters  accidentally slip hammer and the round doesn't go bang..

They don't stop and cycle all the way around to find the round they missed..

For that instant the hammer is down on a live round??

 Didn't go bang??

Until they cycled all the way around again??

and it's a No Call??

 

Please fill me in.. What's the difference 

 

Rance ;)

Thinkin I ain't tryin to be a smart a$$:huh: just wonderin..:wacko:

Yes the hammer is down on a live round, but the gun is still 'in hand.'

RO1 Page 107

Holstering or staging a revolver with the hammer down on a live round.  

Edited by Captain Bill Burt
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The shotgun dude with the migraine has got to be the all-time Darwin Award winner - just sayin'

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53 minutes ago, Rance - SASS # 54090 said:

This thread made me curious..

I see shooters  accidentally slip hammer and the round doesn't go bang..

They don't stop and cycle all the way around to find the round they missed..

For that instant the hammer is down on a live round??

 Didn't go bang??

Until they cycled all the way around again??

and it's a No Call??

 

Please fill me in.. What's the difference 

 

Rance ;)

Thinkin I ain't tryin to be a smart a$$:huh: just wonderin..:wacko:

In this case, the hammer isn't down on a live round, it's in between the chambers which is why it didn't go bang. When the shooter pulls the hammer again (especially on Rugers with transfer bar), the cylinder indexes past the intended chamber to the next one.

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Let throw a wrench in this monkey, (one of my specialties)

 

Stage calls for shoot 5 and move to next position for next 5 shots. Number 5 round goes click. Now, am I allowed to move to the next position with #5 round under the hammer? The click counts as engaging the 5th target,

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5 minutes ago, Tn Tombstone said:

Let throw a wrench in this monkey, (one of my specialties)

 

Stage calls for shoot 5 and move to next position for next 5 shots. Number 5 round goes click. Now, am I allowed to move to the next position with #5 round under the hammer? The click counts as engaging the 5th target,

A quick search doesn't show anything that specifically addresses that.  However, we know that if you're not going to try to go round to get another hit on the primer the gun needs to be declared dead, and it shouldn't be holstered.  My preference would be that you ground it safely then move to the next position.  It MIGHT be acceptable to bring it with you to the next position.  You could cock it and pull the trigger again, just to ensure you no longer have a live round under the hammer.

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27 minutes ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

In this case, the hammer isn't down on a live round, it's in between the chambers which is why it didn't go bang. When the shooter pulls the hammer again (especially on Rugers with transfer bar), the cylinder indexes past the intended chamber to the next one.

I don't think that's a safe conclusion to make. Yeah if they don't get a fully cocked hammer you can get that outcome, but  it's not uncommon for a shooter to fail to get their thumb out of the way, thereby impeding the hammer fall and not getting ignition.  In that case, the hammer IS down on a live round. 

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The gun is still under control and pointed downrange.  The shooter can continue as if it's a dead primer. He has the option of continuing to cycle the gun until that round fires. If it does, great, no safety issue, no penalty. All he's lost is the extra time. If it doesn't go bang, he or the TO declares a malfunction and grounds the gun. If he holsters the gun with a dead round, the DQ applies.

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34 minutes ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

The gun is still under control and pointed downrange.  The shooter can continue as if it's a dead primer. He has the option of continuing to cycle the gun until that round fires. If it does, great, no safety issue, no penalty. All he's lost is the extra time. If it doesn't go bang, he or the TO declares a malfunction and grounds the gun. If he holsters the gun with a dead round, the DQ applies.

Holstering a revolver with an unfired round is only a Stage Disqualification ONLY if it is under the hammer.

 

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1 hour ago, Tn Tombstone said:

Stage calls for shoot 5 and move to next position for next 5 shots. Number 5 round goes click. Now, am I allowed to move to the next position with #5 round under the hammer? The click counts as engaging the 5th target,

 

SHB pg 12:

Quote

Movement is not allowed with a loaded round under the hammer of any firearm.

 

SHB pg 15:

Quote

Safe Conditions During a Course of Fire – Revolvers

Revolvers are considered SAFE for movement (in hand, while holstering, or while moving through a stage) and SAFE to leave the shooter’s hand in the following conditions ONLY:

- Hammer fully down on an empty chamber.

- Hammer fully down on an expended round. A revolver may not be originally staged in this condition, but may be restaged in this condition.

- GUNFIGHTER shooting style considerations: When shooting Gunfighter style, a gunfighter may not holster revolvers with the intent to engage another sequence. (See Gunfighter Rules).

 

SHB pg 23:

Quote

STAGE DISQUALIFICATION PENALTY (SDQ)

- Changing location/moving with a live round under a cocked hammer or firearm with the hammer down on a live round.

 

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1 hour ago, Tn Tombstone said:

Let throw a wrench in this monkey, (one of my specialties)

 

Stage calls for shoot 5 and move to next position for next 5 shots. Number 5 round goes click. Now, am I allowed to move to the next position with #5 round under the hammer? The click counts as engaging the 5th target,

Yes shooter engaged Target but until pistol is inspected we will not know the correct call.

It is possible the 5th click is on an empty chamber. 

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Posted (edited)
48 minutes ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

Holstering a revolver with an unfired round is only a Stage Disqualification ONLY if it is under the hammer.

 

If the shooter has cycled the cylinder and then holstered the gun, how do we know where that round is? My concern is if the revolver is shot before another gun where the shooter is moving with a holstered pistol and potentially live round under the hammer. Is he allowed finish the stage and go to the unloading table or inspect it on the firing line where it can be verified? I'm not finding that nuance specified in the rule book. Can you provide a reference? 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Abilene Slim SASS 81783

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15 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

SHB pg 12:

 

SHB pg 15:

 

SHB pg 23:

 

However the SHB  page 14 also says "Leaving unfired rounds in a revolver is a Miss penalty. However, if a live round is under the hammer, a Stage Disqualification penalty is assessed."

 

That penalty is negated if the gun is declared dead.  Would declaring the gun dead negate the penalty for changing location with a live round under the hammer?  I don't like that idea, which is why I said my preference would be to ground it.

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5 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

However the SHB  page 14 also says "Leaving unfired rounds in a revolver is a Miss penalty. However, if a live round is under the hammer, a Stage Disqualification penalty is assessed."

 

That penalty is negated if the gun is declared dead.  Would declaring the gun dead negate the penalty for changing location with a live round under the hammer?  I don't like that idea, which is why I said my preference would be to ground it.

Declaring a dead gun means it has to be grounded and therefore can't be reholstered. If the shooter grounds the gun then yes, it's only a miss for the unfired round.

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1 hour ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

Holstering a revolver with an unfired round is only a Stage Disqualification ONLY if it is under the hammer.

15 minutes ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

If the shooter has cycled the cylinder and then holstered the gun, how do we know where that round is? My concern is if the revolver is shot before another gun where the shooter is moving with a holstered pistol and potentially live round under the hammer. Is he allowed finish the stage and go to the unloading table or inspect it on the firing line where it can be verified? I'm not finding that nuance specified in the rule book. Can you provide a reference? 

And in-between Branchwater Jack gave the reference for WHEN it IS a DQ.

23 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

SHB pg 23:

STAGE DISQUALIFICATION PENALTY (SDQ)

- Changing location/moving with a live round under a cocked hammer or firearm with the hammer down on a live round.

Ergo, if the round whether live, dead primer or dud, IS NOT under the hammer, it's not a SDQ penalty.    Same circumstance if the shooter fires 1 or 2 or 3 shots, encounters a round that doesn't go off and then fires the 5th shot... holster or moves while holstering, there's no live or dud round under the hammer, no penalty.  The SHB is big enough with what IS a penalty, without listing all circumstances when a penalty is NOT incurred.

 

The only penalty will be for "rounds not fired", scored as 5-second misses.  If the live or dud round is found to be under the hammer at the unloading table, then it's a SDQ in accordance with the above referenced rule on pg 23.

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9 minutes ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

Declaring a dead gun means it has to be grounded and therefore can't be reholstered. If the shooter grounds the gun then yes, it's only a miss for the unfired round.

I don't believe that is completely correct.  The gun can be handed off, although that is not ideal.  That begs the question of what to do if there isn't a place to safely ground it? Hand it off and let that person ground it?  Carry it to a place where it can be safely grounded?

 

I'm not finding anything that specifies whether the penalty for moving with a live round under the hammer is negated if a malfunction is declared.

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As sometimes happens, shooter fires pistols with no prop/table to "ground" a declared malfunction. Do you ground it on the ground, or move to a table/prop, say where the rifle is staged, ground the pistol there and continue the stage?

 

Thank you Captain Bill Burt... same question.

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I don't believe that is completely correct.  The gun can be handed off, although that is not ideal.  That begs the question of what to do if there isn't a place to safely ground it? Hand it off and let that person ground it?  Carry it to a place where it can be safely grounded?

 

I'm not finding anything that specifies whether the penalty for moving with a live round under the hammer is negated if a malfunction is declared.

It used to be written that it could be handed off to the TO or grounded.  That was was problematic for some, as they didn't want to be responsible for a gun in a "fireable" (is that a word?) condition, and it was removed.

 

However, with no place to safely ground an firearm, SOMEONE has to take some responsibility and take control of it.  The "ground" is not always a safe option.  Here is a place that the ROIII manual provides excellent service.  USE some UNCOMMON GOOD SENSE!  As a TO, I like to know where guns are on "my stage"... so I'll take your broken little six-shooter and therefore I KNOW where it's pointed.  I won't hand it off to a 3rd party, as now I have to know where 2 other individuals are pointing guns.  Since I already have one individual trying to shoot the stage, that is just barely under direct observation, adding that 3rd party to the equation means I have to divide my attention between the two of them.  NEVER a safe option.  

 

Therefore, be kind to your TOs Mr. Match Director, ALWAYS provide a place to ground a malfunctioning firearm.  

Edited by Griff
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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

If the shooter has cycled the cylinder and then holstered the gun, how do we know where that round is? My concern is if the revolver is shot before another gun where the shooter is moving with a holstered pistol and potentially live round under the hammer. Is he allowed finish the stage and go to the unloading table or inspect it on the firing line where it can be verified? I'm not finding that nuance specified in the rule book. Can you provide a reference? 

 

 

 

 

 

It is the Timing Operator's preference to clear the live pistol on the line (My preference) or have the unloading table officer clear the firearm. Careful observation of the shooter clearing the firearm is important.

This is why it is important to "ground" the firearm instead of holstering.

There are too many nuances that can happen for every detail to be covered in the rule book!

A safe way to holster is to load the empty chamber on the malfunctioning firearm and fire that round. Then the firearm can be safely holstered with the hammer down on a fired chamber.

 

Edited by Ace_of_Hearts
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6 hours ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

A safe way to holster is to load the empty chamber on the malfunctioning firearm and fire that round. Then the firearm can be safely holstered with the hammer down on a fired chamber.

And what would be the procedure then to avoid the miss for live round in cylinder at the ULT? Declare the malfunction after last shot of the stage? 

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

...

A safe way to holster is to load the empty chamber on the malfunctioning firearm and fire that round. Then the firearm can be safely holstered with the hammer down on a fired chamber.

 

 

4 hours ago, Equanimous Phil said:

And what would be the procedure then to avoid the miss for live round in cylinder at the ULT? Declare the malfunction after last shot of the stage? 

 

Assuming that the Timer Operator saw the shooter perform that reload (if he didn't, he should be sent for "regrooving"), the T/O should either:

Have the shooter clear the revolver before directing him to the ULT (same procedure when there is a question regarding an unfired round under the hammer)

OR

Notify the ULTO that there is an unfired round (along with 5 empties) in the shooter's revolver...and that there is NO MISS for that round.

 

 

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
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