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Equanimous Phil

WB question: holster cant vs. 170 rule?

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Posted (edited)

Howdy

 

I know there's the Wild Bunch Forum but haven't an account there, so I am asking here. Also, searching the forums didn't help.

 

Not started WB yet and looking for a holster. I've seen a lot with backwards / "FBI" canting angle. As far as I read in the handbooks, the 170° rule applies also in WB. So, muzzle must point downrange within the 170° cone with the exeption of drawing and holstering (holsters of any style) where you must stay within 180°, holstering not relevant for WB, of course. For CAS I have a cross draw holster and I rotate my body for muzzle control. Well, what do you do with a backwards cant holster? I suppose nobody does some kind of limbo dance while drawing... :D Do you manage that the muzzle is pointing already (at least) straight downwards when it clears the leather? Or is the rule not applicable until you rack the slide? Please educate me!

 

Equanimous Phil

Edited by Equanimous Phil

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Nobody with a clarification..? :(

 

I would really like to know before I order a rig. Don't know if it makes a difference, but it would be for Wild Bunch side matches only, not for WB main match.

 

Here's an example of a holster I am talking about (from Kirkpatrick Leather)

Deputy_1911_holster_s.jpg.55aeb1d61b31c1f42e14001b642ab097.jpg

Looking forward to hear from the posse :)

 

Equanimous

 

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To the best of my knowledge Kirkpatrick only makes one style holster for the 1911.  It is called the "Wild Bunch Holster" and it is a straight drop holster. I know of no-one ever showing up at a WBAS match with an FBI cant holster. If that is a picture of the Kirkpatrick holster my guess is the camera angle makes it appear canted but it is not. 

 

"Holsters ......... must be of traditional or military design made of canvas or leather."   WBAS SHB page 15

 

Traditional and military design holsters for the 1911 were of straight drop design.   The FBI cant is NOT of traditional design.  (we are talking about the early 1900's  when discussing WBAS design.)

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Posted (edited)

Maybe Kirkpatrick only makes one style for "Old West" style , but they make about 15 other 1911 holsters.  That one Phil has in his post is called the "Deputy Marshal" on their website. 

The "Wild Bunch" is grouped with the other CAS rigs. That would be the one to pick from Kirkpatrick.

Rex :D

Edited by Rex M Rugers #6621
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Thank you Happy Jack and Rex for your responses! I will definitely order a straight drop holster now!

 

I think the confusion arose as I was looking for on-stock available holsters and it seems that one can find a lot of "Wild Bunch" advertised 1911 holsters on sales platforms  like ebay etc. that are in fact not suitable for WBAS. Also the Kirkpatrick site is a little bit confusing as the 'Wild Bunch Rig' is indeed listed first under "Old West Holsters & Cowboy Holsters", but scrolling down the other semi-auto holsters like '(Custom) Deputy Marshall' and 'Holdridge Rig' are also listed in that category.

 

Regarding the required 'Traditional Design': I've found pictures of Wild Bunch rigs here that have forward cant which also didn't look very traditional to me, so I didn't consider the reward cant design a strict criterion for exclusion.

 

Always happy trails!

Equanimous Phil

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I have seen several wild bunch shooters use rearward cant holsters, never seen them told it was an unauthorized holster, so long as its leather.

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1 hour ago, Ranger Dan said:

I have seen several wild bunch shooters use rearward cant holsters, never seen them told it was an unauthorized holster, so long as its leather.

 

Thank you for that interesting info!

 

But it brings me back to my initial questions... It seems that the drawing isn't covered that well in the SHB. I don't consider it a safety issue because the chamber is empty while drawing and the pistol has to be racked first (compared to a SA revolver where someone already could cock the hammer while drawing). And there is no reholstering in WB before clearing the gun.

 

So, still looking for rule clarification regarding breaking 170°/180°...

...but still gonna order a straight drop holster :)

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So far as I am aware, the 170/180 is the same as Cowboy. 170 is horizontal, 180 vertical. When muzzle clears leather it must be within 180 vertical and immediately transition to downrange. This can be done with a canted holster just like it can be done with a crossdraw.

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5 hours ago, Equanimous Phil said:

 

Thank you for that interesting info!

 

But it brings me back to my initial questions... It seems that the drawing isn't covered that well in the SHB. I don't consider it a safety issue because the chamber is empty while drawing and the pistol has to be racked first (compared to a SA revolver where someone already could cock the hammer while drawing). And there is no reholstering in WB before clearing the gun.

 

So, still looking for rule clarification regarding breaking 170°/180°...

...but still gonna order a straight drop holster :)

No, they CANNOT be cocking while drawing. Revolver cannot be cocked until muzzle is 45° downrange.

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11 hours ago, Boggus Deal #64218 said:

No, they CANNOT be cocking while drawing. Revolver cannot be cocked until muzzle is 45° downrange.

 

Fully agree, probably just a misunderstanding as English is a foreign language for me :blush:

 

Of course, cocking is only allowed from 45°. What I meant was that it is not unlikely to happen to a bustling or careless shooter (resulting in a MSV) and therefore this case has to be considered for safety considerations.

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I’m going to give you my “cheapskate” advice.  There’s no need to spend a bunch of money for a Wild Bunch holster.  Many  holsters designed for a single action revolver will serve for a 1911.  It only stays in the holster from the LT until the pistol is drawn.  We don’t reholster the 1911 at the end of the string.

 

Spend the money on ammo.

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7 hours ago, Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667 said:

I’m going to give you my “cheapskate” advice.  There’s no need to spend a bunch of money for a Wild Bunch holster.  Many  holsters designed for a single action revolver will serve for a 1911.  It only stays in the holster from the LT until the pistol is drawn.  We don’t reholster the 1911 at the end of the string.

 

I'll have my 1911 shipped next week and will check how it fits my CAS holsters. Definitely the way to go until I have something else for it. But especially for stages where pistol is not shot first and movement is required until drawing I will feel more comfortable if the gun is properly seated on my belt. And anyway, a nice gun deserves a nice well-fitting holster :) and the looks is also an important part to me in CAS :blush:

Have not decided yet what style I want to order, more cowboy or military, and how much drop I prefer.

 

Equanimous

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This is a little off topic but I’m curious, what is involved in obtaining a handgun in your country.

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2 hours ago, Snake-eye, SASS#45097 said:

what is involved in obtaining a handgun in your country

 

Basically, you

  • need to be 18+
  • must have a clean criminal record
  • cannot be citizen from certain “war-related” countries (Albania, Bosnia, Kosovo, Serbia, Turkey, …)

to obtain a handgun.

 

There are some restrictions for full-autos, semi-auto rifles with more than 10 round capacity, handguns with more than 20 rounds capacity and for silencers, but everything else is trouble-free to get.
You apply for an attestation by the state police for up to 3 guns and they will do a background check. Takes a couple of days, costs about 55$ and is valid for 6 months, so you can do it in advance if you plan to buy toys. You have to apply for every new purchase, also if you’re already a gun owner. You must declare a “purpose” for the gun, which usually is sports, hunting or collection. You also need such an attestation if you buy from your pard or inherit firearms from your family.
Personally, those background checks don’t bother me because I can purchase as many firearms as I want to. On the other hand, I sleep very well knowing that every gun owning neighbor was background checked as well.

 

Please note that carry is not allowed here, and it’s almost impossible to obtain a carry license if it’s not for your job (security guard etc). It’s even prohibited to transport a gun (in your trunk) if you’re not on the way to or from a shooting range or a gun shop.

 

Kind of unique: While you are in the military service - and that’s almost every male citizen from 20yr to his late 30s - you keep your full-auto rifle (SIG 550) at home and have to proof your shooting skills once every year.

 

Equanimous Phil

 

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Here's mine. Holster has a 10 degree muzzle forward cant. As you can see, it brings the grip more parallel with the belt for less wrist twisting when drawing. It's made by JM Leather and is called the WB III holster.

 

958728681_WBholsterw1911.thumb.jpg.fdad70cb91243c72e4a19f85ed70be1d.jpg

 

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Phil, you have brought up a good question about holster cant.  Happy Jack is THE expert on the rules and has replied for you.  Further, based on comments in this thread, the Wild Bunch ROC will review this rule to see if some clarification is needed to be included in the 2021 rules. 

Generally, if there is no clarification in WB but there is in cowboy, WB accepts the cowboy clarification.  For example, in this case, cowboy rules have clarified that the 180˚ applies as soon as the muzzle of the gun completely clears the holster.  At that time, the shooter must then immediately move the barrel to the 170˚ or better.  Therefore, as long as your pistol is straight up and down before the muzzle clears the holster and then you immediately point it downrange you are good to go. 

However, in the WB rules,  I think we need to further clarify what we mean by “traditional or military design” for the holster and we will do so for our next rule changes.

I encourage you to use the WB Forum for posting WB questions.

Legendary Lawman

Chair, WB ROC

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Holsters for Wild Bunch cannot hang more than 30 degrees from vertical. Same as Cowboy.

 

It is on page 26 of the Wild Bunch Handbook under ILLEGAL ITEMS

• Holsters departing from the vertical by more than 30° when worn.

 

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