Stage Description

[Painted Mohawk SASS 77785]

Howdy...I think this may have come up before but I will ask again.

If it says in both hands then we know to hold in both hands..but if for example as we had happen at the w'end ..holding the pistol in hand @ 45 degree angle load 1 and then place 6 shots on the target...for some hand & hands is the same, I'm not of that opinion.

I asked if I could hold with one hand & place my other hand over the reload bullet [ while still in the loop ]..I was denied.

What say ye'......

[Nickel City Dude]

This is the reason the rule book no longer fits in your back pocket!

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

I'm of the belief that "In Hand" means both hands...yes, it's reasonable to think otherwise...

 

So folks, don't forget the "S" at the end of "Hand".

 

Ugh...

 

Phantom

[Painted Mohawk SASS 77785]

7 minutes ago, Painted Mohawk SASS 77785 said:

Howdy...I think this may have come up before but I will ask again.

If it says in both hands then we know to hold in both hands..but if for example as we had happen at the w'end ..holding the pistol in hand @ 45 degree angle load 1 and then place 6 shots on the target...for some hand & hands is the same, I'm not of that opinion.

I asked if I could hold with one hand & place my other hand over the reload bullet [ while still in the loop ]..I was denied.

What say ye'......

Yes I can understand what you are saying it probably sounds a bit picky  !!

[Cliff Hanger #3720LR]

The instructions say, "hand".

 

A duelist, double duelist and frontersman would hold the gun in one hand by their rules of shooting one handed.

 

The instructions should say where the second hand is.

 

On gun, on table, on hip, on hat, but the isntructions did not say.

Shooter's choice where the hand is.

 

The instructions also did not say you could not touch the round to be loaded.

 

When writing stages, the instructions must be specific so there is no misunderstanding on what is wanted of the shooter.

If not specific, it is up to the shooter to interput the insturctions.

Did the shooter do what the instruction said? Yes.

 

[Painted Mohawk SASS 77785]

11 minutes ago, Cliff Hanger #3720LR said:

The instructions say, "hand".

 

A duelist, double duelist and frontersman would hold the gun in one hand by their rules of shooting one handed.

 

The instructions should say where the second hand is.

 

On gun, on table, on hip, on hat, but the isntructions did not say.

Shooter's choice where the hand is.

 

The instructions also did not say you could not touch the round to be loaded.

 

When writing stages, the instructions must be specific so there is no misunderstanding on what is wanted of the shooter.

If not specific, it is up to the shooter to interput the insturctions.

Did the shooter want do what the instruction said? Yes.

 

Cliff Hanger..Your comments are spot on mate..if the words aren't in concrete then half the fun of this game is doing it differently still as intended ..yes hand & hands may have the intent of being the same but they are different ! As previously said say Hands' if that is what is required.

[Ace_of_Hearts]

If the stage instruction only specify one hand, then the other hand is required to be at SASS default.

If no starting position is given, the shooter shall stand upright with revolvers holstered, hands at the sides, and not touching any firearm.

Many clubs have adopted a modification of this in which the shooter must be standing but not necessarily UPRIGHT and hands not touching guns or ammo.

 

[Sagebrush Burns, SASS # 14226]

As long as the instruction/ruling is applied consistently ther should be no problem.

[Painted Mohawk SASS 77785]

1 hour ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

If the stage instruction only specify one hand, then the other hand is required to be at SASS default.

If no starting position is given, the shooter shall stand upright with revolvers holstered, hands at the sides, and not touching any firearm.

Many clubs have adopted a modification of this in which the shooter must be standing but not necessarily UPRIGHT and hands not touching guns or ammo.

 

If no starting position is given then yes I agree, in this case it was pistol in hand at 45 degree..so where do you come up with the other hand must be  at the SASS default  ?

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Quote

Reminder: SASS default still applies even if not explicitly stated in the stage scenario. E. g.: If the stage scenario calls for hands on hat, hands holding rope, hands touching both sides of window frame, etc., then the rest of your body must be at SASS default. You do not have to be looking straight down range. You can look down at your firearm.

WR TG Meeting minutes - 2017

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Quote

Just because the scenario states to point 1 hand downrange does not mean the shooter can have the other hand on the gun or bend down over the gun, unless stage instructions state otherwise. The other hand must be at SASS default, at side not touching guns and shooter must be standing upright. Any exceptions to the “default” position DO NOT negate the other criteria.

EoT TG Meeting minutes - 2016

[Painted Mohawk SASS 77785]

1 hour ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

EoT TG Meeting minutes - 2016

Thanks PWB..My apology for not  understanding the rule correctly...I only applied the SASS default position  when there was no start position given..I now know that to have a free hand somewhere else than the default it has to be written in the stage description.

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

We went through this at our club awhile back. Shooter said instructions said hand on gun. It was resolved with some application of out language. We gave the interpretation that hand meant hands because;

'Can you lend me a hand" which is both not one.

'Let's give him a hand'. Thats 2 not one.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

A good match director will eliminate the Nannyism from SASS default by writing:

"In the absence of a defined starting position - We use the club default of SHABPOC (Shooters hand and body position of choice) not touching guns or ammo"

If there is a defined starting position; it means exactly that which is defined (rifle in hands, pistol in hand, hands on hat, shooter in doorway etc.) the rest of the shooters positioning is covered by the club default of SHABPOC.

 

This allows EVERY shooter to prepare for their gunfight in the hand and body position that best suits them or their category.

And eliminates the foolish requirement of SASS SULAI (Standing upright like an idiot).

 

Imminently fair to all - as all are allowed the body position of THEIR choice.

And no one gets to complain that standing upright was handled differently on Posse 1 than it was on Posse 4.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

55 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

We went through this at our club awhile back. Shooter said instructions said hand on gun. It was resolved with some application of out language. We gave the interpretation that hand meant hands because;

'Can you lend me a hand" which is both not one.

'Let's give him a hand'. Thats 2 not one.

Just to be pedantic - Hand means singular; the addition of an "S" is required to make it plural.

Words have specific meanings and pretending otherwise does no service to any.

 

Your buddy falls and requests a "Hand" up - the singular of hand has been asked for (with the absence of the plural S); also supported by the letter "A" preceding hand (indicating a single item).

A bank robber requests "HandS up" because he specifically desires BOTH hands in the air.

And as for let's give him a hand? 

Hand is being used as a synonym for perhaps applause or providing assistance (which could be as diverse as lending a tool, providing emotional support or giving financially) - not strictly referring to a hand or hands (or the use of either) within the context.

 

If you want a specific outcome from your instructions - provide specific instructions and do not require a shooter to understand your precise intentions if you refuse to state it clearly.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

If someone gives you 'The Finger', its very well interpreted.

 

BUT, if someone 'waves' at you, they gave you 'fingers'.

Big difference, just like hand/hands.

 

The Ranch Foreman sent the Ranch Hand into town for some fencing material.   ONE MAN went into town.

The Ranch Foreman sent the Ranch Hands into town for supplies.    More than ONE man went into town.

 

..........Widder

 

 

 

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

Creeker, thank you for your version of how to interpret this. We shall endeavor to continue to use ours.

[Captain Bill Burt]

2 hours ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

We went through this at our club awhile back. Shooter said instructions said hand on gun. It was resolved with some application of out language. We gave the interpretation that hand meant hands because;

'Can you lend me a hand" which is both not one.

'Let's give him a hand'. Thats 2 not one.

 

39 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

Creeker, thank you for your version of how to interpret this. We shall endeavor to continue to use ours.

That's not Creeker's interpretation of what hand and hands mean, it's THE interpretation.  Hand is singular, Hands is plural.  As Creeker stated, the two examples you gave are of 'hand' being used as a synonym for something else.

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

Don't care what you called it, we're still saying hand and hands are the same thing.

[Silver Rings SASS # 27466]

I solve this problem by saying "hand or hands ". Problem solved. 

 

Silver Rings 

[Captain Bill Burt]

1 hour ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

Don't care what you called it, we're still saying hand and hands are the same thing.

You do understand there is a thing called grammar and it has rules?

 

The rule for nouns is you make them plural by adding an ‘s’ with some exceptions. For example if the noun ends in S you don’t make it plural by adding a second S. There are some nouns that have the same singular and plural form, such as deer and fish. 
 

The noun ‘hand’ does not fall under either of those exceptions.

 

The only person who is making up their own interpretation is you. You’re basically saying that you don’t care what the English language rules are, you speak a different language which means whatever you want.

 

You could say red means green, but that doesn’t make it so.

 

Hand means one hand.

 

Hands means more than one hand.

 

Pretty simple.

 

Does make rifle safe mean more than one rifle?

 

If hand and hands mean the same thing then if the stage instructions say shotgun in both ‘hands’ does that mean I can hold it in one ‘hand’ and leave the other at my side near my shells? If not, why not?

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

Sorry, still don't care.

Applying grammar and spelling to stage instructions from what I've seen or read would be an impossible task.

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

The consensus on the wire about 2 years ago was hand can and does mean both hands. The examples I gave were agreed upon. Your examples are struggling to to support the use of grammar when its not used by any on here.

[Captain Bill Burt]

18 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

Sorry, still don't care.

Applying grammar and spelling to stage instructions from what I've seen or read would be an impossible task.

I don’t care much either. It’s a free country, for now. You can say 2+2 = 5 if you like, that will be just as wrong as saying folks are to lazy to write stages correctly so we’re going to create our own language to cover for them.
 

So not only do shooters at your match have to know SASS rules they have to understand that standard English doesn’t apply?

 

If the stage instructions say in hand, I’m using one hand, if they say hands, I’ll use both. It doesn’t have to be that complicated unless you want to start calling up down and singular plural. 
 

What’s really funny is you mock Creeker for providing ‘his’ interpretation, which is the one taught in every school in the country, while offering your interpretation which is taught in zero schools.

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

Again, I still don't care. 

[Captain Bill Burt]

4 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

Again, I still don't care. 

Do you provide a book to translate your stage instructions to English? Is gun still singular, or is it plural, or does the shooter get to decide.

 

The White House issued a statement yesterday. Did a house speak, or does it mean something else?

 

So give me a hand means take a hand off your body and give it to me?

 

Classic case of being to stubborn to acknowledge you don’t know what you’re talking about so you make it up as you go along then say the same thing my 10 year old does. ‘I don’t care.’

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

Keep typing, you're only making your case weaker.

Still don't care.

[Captain Bill Burt]

1 hour ago, Silver Rings SASS # 27466 said:

I solve this problem by saying "hand or hands ". Problem solved. 

 

Silver Rings 

Around here it’s typically hand(s). 

[Captain Bill Burt]

10 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

Keep typing, you're only making your case weaker.

Still don't care.

 There’s no case Ike. I teach people how to teach this stuff, among other things. I can point to grammar rules that back me up.
https://www.grammarly.com/blog/plural-nouns/

https://courses.lumenlearning.com/suny-styleguide/chapter/regular-plural-nouns/
 

You have nothing but your assertion that words mean whatever you want them to.

4 hours ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

We went through this at our club awhile back. Shooter said instructions said hand on gun. It was resolved with some application of out language. We gave the interpretation that hand meant hands because;

'Can you lend me a hand" which is both not one.

'Let's give him a hand'. Thats 2 not one.

So ‘Can you lend me a hand’ means someone wants to borrow both your hands and ‘Let’s give him a hand’ means you need to give someone two hands

 

So instead of teaching a stage writer the difference between plural and singular you took the ‘easy’ way and interpreted yourself into a new language.

 

Ok Ike...

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

So now we have to wait for the grammar police to wave their "educated" hand on how we write stages. Maybe we form an extension of ROC. First we conduct spelling tests. Then we begin with basic punctuation. Then sentence structure and composition.

I never said we hadn't modified the use of the word hand or hands in the stage instructions. My reference was to a challenge made by a shooter who wanted to only put one hand on a gun. And the other on his ammo.

 

Go teach a class somewhere. We're going to shoot with our hand.

[Captain Bill Burt]

2 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

So now we have to wait for the grammar police to wave their "educated" hand on how we write stages. Maybe we form an extension of ROC. First we conduct spelling tests. Then we begin with basic punctuation. Then sentence structure and composition.

I never said we hadn't modified the use of the word hand or hands in the stage instructions. My reference was to a challenge made by a shooter who wanted to only put one hand on a gun. And the other on his ammo.

 

Go teach a class somewhere. We're going to shoot with our hand.

The shooter was wrong, not because of the hand vs hands issue, but because although the 'hand' instruction means singular SASS default still applies to the other hand. 

 

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

So now you're offering opinions about stage instructions you haven't read. You don't know the outcome from the directions the TO gave. And you don't know how we brought this up to the club and gave them direction on writing, reading, and overlaying the actual rules.

 

Just keep guessing and tossing assumptions. You'll get tired, need a nap, and the whine to your other wire followers.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

5 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

So now we have to wait for the grammar police to wave their "educated" hand on how we write stages. Maybe we form an extension of ROC. First we conduct spelling tests. Then we begin with basic punctuation. Then sentence structure and composition.

I never said we hadn't modified the use of the word hand or hands in the stage instructions. My reference was to a challenge made by a shooter who wanted to only put one hand on a gun. And the other on his ammo.

 

Go teach a class somewhere. We're going to shoot with our hand.

I don't think this is about grammar policing - It is simply about adults using correct language; and by use of correct language - clearly communicating their desired outcome to other adults.

If you are that determined to combine singular and plural - please continue to do so. 

It does not affect me... 

 

Actually that is untrue.

I was torn between attending Roop County next month or traveling to Salt Lake City for the Utah State event.

But since I am unwilling to learn a new and incorrect version of the English language - Your input has been imminently helpful in directing my decision.

 

 

 

 

 

[Captain Bill Burt]

Just now, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

So now you're offering opinions about stage instructions you haven't read. You don't know the outcome from the directions the TO gave. And you don't know how we brought this up to the club and gave them direction on writing, reading, and overlaying the actual rules.

 

Just keep guessing and tossing assumptions. You'll get tired, need a nap, and the whine to your other wire followers.

I'm not aware that I have any 'wire followers.'  That would be cool though.   

 

I'm pretty sure I'm not whining either.  I'm trying to explain something pretty basic to someone who refuses to acknowledge basic grammar rules and instead retreats to personal insults.   I'm also not offering an opinion on stage instructions.  Hand vs Hands mean specific things regardless of whether a stage writing doesn't understand that and use the words correctly. 

2 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

I don't think this is about grammar policing - It is simply about adults using correct language; and by use of correct language - clearly communicating their desired outcome to other adults.

If you are that determined to combine singular and plural - please continue to do so. 

It does not affect me... 

 

Actually that is untrue.

I was torn between attending Roop County next month or traveling to Salt Lake City for the Utah State event.

But since I am unwilling to learn a new and incorrect version of the English language - Your input has been imminently helpful in directing my decision.

 

 

 

 

 

Exactly.  I don't want to shoot at a match where SASS rules are not only not followed, but the differences aren't provided to the shooter ahead of time.

By the same token I don't want to shoot at a match where words have meanings that differ from English and the shooter is expected to know the 'special' language that match uses. 

 

[Tyrel Cody]

D@mn China-flu, I’m out of popcorn and really don’t want to put on a useless mask to go get some.