Savvy Jack Posted August 9, 2020 Share Posted August 9, 2020 I was finally able to dissect a newer Winchester Cowboy Action load this morning. 225gr swaged, unlubed bullet, no crimp groove Redding Profile type crimp .429" .606" length Seating depth .315" Powder Charge 4.9gr Resembling a 231/Bullseye type powder flake Winchester brass Case Length 1.299" AOL 1.587" WLP primers Bullets not seated straight. Bulge to one side but a slight "Wasp Waist" evident aiding in anti-telescoping of the bullet. Noted is bullet silhouette, base of bullet deformed on left base from "bulged" side and forced crimp groove. Although the factory used swaged bullets, the very first cast bullets from the "scissor" type casting mold did not offer lube grooves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgavin Posted August 10, 2020 Share Posted August 10, 2020 Many thanks for the ongoing education. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted August 10, 2020 Share Posted August 10, 2020 Confirm caliber? OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Riot Posted August 10, 2020 Share Posted August 10, 2020 1 hour ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said: Confirm caliber? OLG He said .429" Not sure what the cartridge is though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted August 10, 2020 Share Posted August 10, 2020 1 hour ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said: Confirm caliber? OLG 9 minutes ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said: He said .429" Not sure what the cartridge is though... 44 WCF aka 44-40. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted August 10, 2020 Share Posted August 10, 2020 Shouldn't have to guess OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Hangtree Posted August 11, 2020 Share Posted August 11, 2020 You KNOW that Savvy Jack is going to be talking about .44-40. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Mountain Charlie SASS #43172 Posted August 11, 2020 Share Posted August 11, 2020 Wasn't the original .44-40 a .427 bullet diameter? I used Lee Precision bullet sizer .427 and I had a little more shoulder than those shown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savvy Jack Posted August 11, 2020 Author Share Posted August 11, 2020 10 hours ago, Badger Mountain Charlie SASS #43172 said: Wasn't the original .44-40 a .427 bullet diameter? I used Lee Precision bullet sizer .427 and I had a little more shoulder than those shown. Not 100% sure what Winchester's original groove measurements were. It has been reported to be .427" although many older rifle bores measure .424". Dissecting original cartridges yielded bullets with a diameter of .424" as well. By 1894 when Winchester started using Jacked bullets, called "Patched" bullets, dissected bullets measure much the same as modern JSP bullets @ .4255". I think Remington JSP bullets measure .426" I think SAAMI shows the cartridge bullet as .427". SAAMI's roots date back to 1913 as the Society of American Manufacturers of Small Arms and Ammunition (SAMSAA). SAMSAA lapsed in 1920. By 1926, it was back as SAAMI. SAAMI didnt start the transition from copper crusher to the piezoelectric transducer until the 1970's. Were exactly .427" came in as an official size I don't know, but it would appear that the 13,000cup was equal to 11,000psi for the 44-40 max psi pressure standard sometime after 1970. Thus on the 44-40 webpage I settled for Original 44-40 to measure between .424" and .427"https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/44-40-Winchester The very first 44-40 cartridges manufactured were the Milbank primed type and the cases were shorter than today's. Although short lived there is only one known example and there is no mention as to the estimated diamter of the bullet.https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smuteye John SASS#24774 Posted August 11, 2020 Share Posted August 11, 2020 Speaking of guessing... I guess that SASS has dropped their ban on posting load data. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savvy Jack Posted August 11, 2020 Author Share Posted August 11, 2020 14 minutes ago, Smuteye John SASS#24774 said: Speaking of guessing... I guess that SASS has dropped their ban on posting load data. Were do you see load data? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Mountain Charlie SASS #43172 Posted August 11, 2020 Share Posted August 11, 2020 5 hours ago, Savvy Jack said: Not 100% sure what Winchester's original groove measurements were. It has been reported to be .427" although many older rifle bores measure .424". Dissecting original cartridges yielded bullets with a diameter of .424" as well. By 1894 when Winchester started using Jacked bullets, called "Patched" bullets, dissected bullets measure much the same as modern JSP bullets @ .4255". I think Remington JSP bullets measure .426" I think SAAMI shows the cartridge bullet as .427". SAAMI's roots date back to 1913 as the Society of American Manufacturers of Small Arms and Ammunition (SAMSAA). SAMSAA lapsed in 1920. By 1926, it was back as SAAMI. SAAMI didnt start the transition from copper crusher to the piezoelectric transducer until the 1970's. Were exactly .427" came in as an official size I don't know, but it would appear that the 13,000cup was equal to 11,000psi for the 44-40 max psi pressure standard sometime after 1970. Thus on the 44-40 webpage I settled for Original 44-40 to measure between .424" and .427"https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/44-40-Winchester The very first 44-40 cartridges manufactured were the Milbank primed type and the cases were shorter than today's. Although short lived there is only one known example and there is no mention as to the estimated diamter of the bullet.https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/page Thanks for the information, Jack. When I first started in SASS I purchased a pair of Ruger Vaqueros in .44-40. As some might know, Bill Ruger used his .44 Mag barrels on them. Mine were somewhere north of .430. My bullets were .427. I sold them and bought a pair of EMF's Great Western's Californians in .44-40 and the group tightened up considerably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savvy Jack Posted August 11, 2020 Author Share Posted August 11, 2020 26 minutes ago, Badger Mountain Charlie SASS #43172 said: Thanks for the information, Jack. When I first started in SASS I purchased a pair of Ruger Vaqueros in .44-40. As some might know, Bill Ruger used his .44 Mag barrels on them. Mine were somewhere north of .430. My bullets were .427. I sold them and bought a pair of EMF's Great Western's Californians in .44-40 and the group tightened up considerably. It has been known that soft lead .427" lead bullets typically shoot fine from .430" bores. The problem Ruger had was that their chambers were .427" not allowing larger diameter bullets from chambering, and I bliever the accuracy problem was from using hard lead .427" bullets that would not expand and fill the bore. Ed Harris wrote a great article about them. https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/handloading/ancient-history-part-1 https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/handloading/ancient-history-part-2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Mountain Charlie SASS #43172 Posted August 11, 2020 Share Posted August 11, 2020 Yes, they were hard lead commercial bullets. Back in the day, when shooting Black Powder out of my Enfield muzzle stuffer, I used soft lead .577 out of it. Skirts on the bullet worked fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted August 11, 2020 Share Posted August 11, 2020 9 hours ago, Smuteye John SASS#24774 said: Speaking of guessing... I guess that SASS has dropped their ban on posting load data. 9 hours ago, Savvy Jack said: Were do you see load data? Posting load data has been allowed on the wire for a couple of years now.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savvy Jack Posted August 12, 2020 Author Share Posted August 12, 2020 On 8/10/2020 at 8:47 PM, Badger Mountain Charlie SASS #43172 said: Wasn't the original .44-40 a .427 bullet diameter? I used Lee Precision bullet sizer .427 and I had a little more shoulder than those shown. Just dissected this Winchester "1946" cartridge. JSP is .424" 11.3gr Sharpshooter type powder. (Bottom photo) Cartridge on right has been re-assembled with a Redding Profile Crimp set to size .428" bullets. 1930's and 1940's loads are reported to be 1,300fps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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