Ammo question

[Father Kit Cool Gun Garth]

Not sure if this question was previously addressed , but thought I would ask anyway.

We shoot lead bullets in SASS at metal targets.

What would be the damage difference to a human between shooting a perp with a 9mm Springfield XDS, and a Ruger Vaquero with our 38 cal 158g lead Ammo?

 

[Kid Rich]

It depends on bullet weight, configuration, what bullet is composed of and velocity. What gun it comes from or caliber makes no difference at all, if all the other variables are identical

kR

[Alpo]

A "perp"?

 

My 38s would do more damage than most cowboys' 38s, because I don't load squibs in my guns. A 158 RNF or SWC at about 900.

 

I don't know what the effects of shooting someone with an XDS would be. I don't shoot Glocks or Glock wannabes. But if I shot someone with a Beretta 92, it would be a full metal jacket 115 grain bullet, and I believe the heavier lead 38, even though slower, would do more damage.

[Utah Bob #35998]

It ain't the gun IT'S THE BULLET.

Now, before the time of the modern semi auto, which for police departments sort of began in the 70s, the average carry gun was a .38 special. A lot of people were seriously kilt with the 38.

The "damage" incurred depends on the type of bullet, solid lead, FMJ, SJHP, etc., weight, and the velocity. The mortality depends on what gets hit.

So just a 9mm semi vs a 38 CAS gun is not enough info. The higher the velocity the more the bullet will expand, but there are variables there too.

 

In a word, it's complicated.

 

[Texas Lizard]

Not trying to be funny on this one...But I hope the results are the same...You get to go home...

 

Texas Lizard

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

My soft cast lead Bullets with their Big Flat Point at around 960 Fps . and a weight of 158 gr. in .38 spl. would likely decide the issue at least as well as the 9mm...

But  I seldom use this small a caliber .....

My .38 WCF. load of 180 gr. Soft cast Flat point  at 980 fps. ,  .44 spl.  using  a 225 gr. Flat point  at 960 fps.  or my .45 Colt load using  a soft cast F;lat Point of 255 gr. at 960 fps. all of these would be better stoppers than any 9mm.

 

Velocities  are out of my pistols ,they run about 1,240 - 1,300 out of my rifles ...

 

Jabez Cowboy

[Doc X]

I still like the old standby in a .38spl.  A lead hollow base wadcutter loaded backwards. Does the job.

 

[Pat Riot]

2 hours ago, Alpo said:

My 38s would do more damage than most cowboys' 38s, because I don't load squibs in my guns. A 158 RNF or SWC at about 900.

Same here. My .357 and .45 Colt loads for CAS are not mouse fart loads. I have always imagined how it would feel to be evacuating your home in an emergency and grabbing a box of “Cowboy loads” with 100 grain 400 FPS cartridges with the power factor of paper wads....Grrrrr

 

Truth be told it pizzes me off to read about wimpy-arsed “Cowboy loads” in other non-CAS forums. Wimp loads were once looked down upon. Now they are the norm.

 

But I digress...

 

My “Cowboy Loads” go fast and hit hard...and no, I am not concerned about my lead projectiles damaging quality steel targets. I am also not concerned about how they would perform in a defensive situation. 

[Alpo]

Had Hazel out at the range one time. Let her shoot my New Service.

 

 

She said something like, "Wow, this has a kick". I told her it was the ammunition I used when playing cowboy. She was stunned. "You PLAY with these loads??!?"

 

Something Venturino said one time. "Just as the buzzer goes off, a war party of screaming Comanches comes over the berm. Would you be comfortable with what you had in your guns?"

 

I would.

[Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967]

As UB said, "The mortality depends on what gets hit."

 

About 1974 a good buddy of mine experienced a mishap with a '73 Colt.  Dropped it, it fired, and his handloaded soft lead 250 gr .45 rnfp got 'im in the leg.  When it hit bone it fairly exploded.  As he later said when he showed me the x-rays, "it was like hitting a Coke bottle with a baseball bat!" with both lead and bone fragments doing all sorts of damage.  Much worse than if it had just mushroomed.

 

Remarkably, he did recover.  

 

I've written a story about the incident, if anyone might care to read it.

[Lawdog Dago Dom]

https://gunbelts.com/blog/muzzle-energy-ballistics/

 

[Cat Brules]

7 hours ago, Kid Rich said:

It depends on bullet weight, configuration, what bullet is composed of and velocity. What gun it comes from or caliber makes no difference at all, if all the other variables are identical

kR

Point of impact makes the difference.

 

Cat Brules

[LawMan Mark, SASS #57095L]

9 hours ago, Alpo said:

Something Venturino said one time. "Just as the buzzer goes off, a war party of screaming Comanches comes over the berm. Would you be comfortable with what you had in your guns?"

 

I would.

Nope.  

 

Not even if I had an AR-15 with 5 30 round magazines.  Let alone two six guns with five rounds each, a rifle with 10 and an empty shotgun.  Whatever the loads.

[Father Kit Cool Gun Garth]

Let me clarify my OP.

Would lead bullets be a sufficient self defense ammo when used to fend off a home invasion perp?

The reason I'm asking, is that with the current shortage of ammo in the 9mm, 357 and 38 special category, I find it interesting that Cowboy lead Ammo is readily available.

Should I stock up on my supply instead?

Serves a dual purpose.

Which of these choices would do the best in the above scenario?

 

[J. Mark Flint #31954 LIFE]

Hard cast lead has long been used to hunt fairly large animals.  They will serve fine for defensive use at close range, even if some super sophisticated jacketed bullet might somehow do better.

[Lawdog Dago Dom]

I remember an article about Jack O'Connor years ago. He said he was frequently asked if the .270 was a better killer than the .25-06, and numerous other caliber comparisons. His reply was that any of them was a killer if the shot was placed correctly, and not a killer if shot placement was poor. "Foot pounds, muzzle velocity and all that other hocus pocus that us rifle nuts swear by, is not as important as where the bullets land."

 

[Utah Bob #35998]

4 hours ago, LawMan Mark, SASS #57095L said:

Nope.  

 

Not even if I had an AR-15 with 5 30 round magazines.  Let alone two six guns with five rounds each, a rifle with 10 and an empty shotgun.  Whatever the loads.

It ain't a comfortable situation. I can think of others.

[Utah Bob #35998]

56 minutes ago, Father Kit Cool Gun Garth said:

Let me clarify my OP.

Would lead bullets be a sufficient self defense ammo when used to fend off a home invasion perp?

The reason I'm asking, is that with the current shortage of ammo in the 9mm, 357 and 38 special category, I find it interesting that Cowboy lead Ammo is readily available.

Should I stock up on my supply instead?

Serves a dual purpose.

Which of these choices would do the best in the above scenario?

 

That's what I'm using for practice in my Colt King Cobra. I have a few boxes of factory sjhp ammo to load when I carry it, but eh 158gr rn lead is fine for the range. If that's all yopu have, it's fine for SD.

[Tom Bullweed]

American Rifleman prints the FBI report every five years on bullet effectiveness.  .22LR and .25 ACP go around 50% for one-shot stops based on metrics and actual street data.  .357 Mag 125-grain JHP usually is tops at 95%.

That being said, none of us would opt for a pistola if a quality longguns and effective ammo was available.

Handgun cartridges are best effective if used on major organs (heart, lungs, brain) or major bones.  They do not have enough power to have serious effectiveness if used otherwise.

[bgavin]

I don't keep any SASS guns loaded in the house.
I do keep Hornady Critical Defense in stock and at the ready.
My personal preference is #1 buck, at the ready... go big or go home.
Living in CA, I fervently hope I never have to defend myself.

[sassnetguy50]

The weights are the same, I’d pick 38 at 800fps.  It is the same speed as the 357 but can be used in more firearms.

[Kid Rich]

20 hours ago, Cat Brules said:

Point of impact makes the difference.

 

Cat Brules

"What gun it comes from makes no difference at all if all the other variables are the same"

Point of impact is not a variable?

kR

[Utah Bob #35998]

5 minutes ago, Kid Rich said:

"What gun it comes from makes no difference at all if all the other variables are the same"

Point of impact is not a variable?

kR

Yes. He said The Other variables. I took that to mean point of impact is the most important.

[Lawdog Dago Dom]

I remember in a movie where an assassin had regular lead bullets. He used a knife to slice an "X" down into the top of the bullet, using a hammer to get the blade down. I don't know if that is an alternative worth pursuing, or more Hollywood fiction.

Haven't tried that one, and don't know anybody who has.

[DeaconKC]

Okay, modern ammo has improved SO much the last 25 years it is incredible. JHPs are now reliable and feed well in modern guns. 100 years ago an agreement was reached in the Hague against expanding lead bullets. Even then, they were recognized as superior in their effects on human beings. Without that expansion, diameter, bullet weight and velocity are the keys to effectiveness. A hard cast .35 [either 9mm or .38] bullet tends to punch through the target, leaving a neat hole unless it hits bone. That is why the .38 Long was such a failure in the Phillipines and the 9mm in WW1. So, shot placement is key, even moreso than with modern expanding ammo.

[Buckshot Bob]

On 8/2/2020 at 9:19 AM, Father Kit Cool Gun Garth said:

Let me clarify my OP.

Would lead bullets be a sufficient self defense ammo when used to fend off a home invasion perp?

The reason I'm asking, is that with the current shortage of ammo in the 9mm, 357 and 38 special category, I find it interesting that Cowboy lead Ammo is readily available.

Should I stock up on my supply instead?

Serves a dual purpose.

Which of these choices would do the best in the above scenario?

 

If you look at allot of the hard cast hunting loads they usually load the semi wad cutters or Keith style bullets , and their usually looking for as much penetration as possible 

[Buckshot Bob]

3 hours ago, Lawdog Dago Dom said:

I remember in a movie where an assassin had regular lead bullets. He used a knife to slice an "X" down into the top of the bullet, using a hammer to get the blade down. I don't know if that is an alternative worth pursuing, or more Hollywood fiction.

Haven't tried that one, and don't know anybody who has.

I’ve see where a couple different companies sell hollow pointer set ups . Where you drill a hole in the bullet 

[sassnetguy50]

19 hours ago, Lawdog Dago Dom said:

I remember in a movie where an assassin had regular lead bullets. He used a knife to slice an "X" down into the top of the bullet, using a hammer to get the blade down. I don't know if that is an alternative worth pursuing, or more Hollywood fiction.

Haven't tried that one, and don't know anybody who has.

A phillips screw driver drove into a LRN 22LR makes a bigger pop on frogs.  Factory HP 22LR makes a bigger pop.

[Smuteye John SASS#24774]

Hit the STOP! button and nobody but the coroner will know the difference.

 

Lotta folks are on the underside of the sod from lead bullet .38 caliber rounds of all varieties.

 

Let's not forget that before the Army got playing with it and eunuched it, the .38 LC in it's original form wasn't a bad round and was quite popular, too.

[El CupAJoe]

if you can get full wad cutters, those are probably preferable to round nose ammo.  HP's most preferable.  I take it you don't reload?  I usually carry a .357 magnum with 125 gr XTP's going about 1250 fps, but my gun had to go to the shop a while back so I was carrying a .22 SAA and my 1860 army alternatively for a while, not what I would want if I had a choice, but I'd use them if push came to bang.  

[Sixgun Sheridan]

On 8/2/2020 at 6:19 AM, Father Kit Cool Gun Garth said:

Let me clarify my OP.

Would lead bullets be a sufficient self defense ammo when used to fend off a home invasion perp?

The reason I'm asking, is that with the current shortage of ammo in the 9mm, 357 and 38 special category, I find it interesting that Cowboy lead Ammo is readily available.

Should I stock up on my supply instead?

Serves a dual purpose.

Which of these choices would do the best in the above scenario?

 

 

All three loads have similar ballistics and will have the same impact. All three are perfectly capable of inflicting a lethal wound, even if they're not ideal defense rounds by today's standards. Nobody with any brains wants to be shot, not even with a .22LR (which is also quite lethal). The constant worry we gun owners have about having to fend off some 300lb, meth-laced Thugasaurus Rex in our living room is mostly unfounded.

[Henry T Harrison]

On 8/1/2020 at 6:47 PM, Doc X said:

I still like the old standby in a .38spl.  A lead hollow base wadcutter loaded backwards. Does the job.

 

Before the days of Super Vel that was the load I carried in my off duty Model 36. I’m considering going back to it My duty load was a Winchester 357 mag 158gr semi wadcutter fired from a Colt Lawman. Two cylinders full and you were firing a smooth bore

[John Kloehr]

I teach carry classes in Tennessee, so I have a bit of background...

 

Recognizing .22lr is the most popular caliber in the US, more people die every year from .22lr wounds every year than all other calibers combined.

 

Shot placement is more important than power.

 

The next factor is how much fight is in a threat. If a threat has the fight in them, then even shredding the heart with a .357 magnum will leave you fighting for your life for another 23 seconds until the brain runs out of oxygen; conversely, someone who does not have the fight in them will go down if even barely winged with a .22lr.

 

Two examples... Someone who went crazy in a small California community took seven fatal wounds from LE and still did not stop his rampage with a bulldozer for 20 minutes. In another case, an LE took a .357 in the chest from a 'banger, she stayed in the fight, took out the banger, then went through many hours of surgery, and woke up in the hospital facing a very long fight to live, and ultimately survived.

 

Shot placement matters a lot. Unless a round hits the "off switch", having the fight in one's soul matters more. Both matter more than caliber and velocity.

[Subdeacon Joe]

A lot of people got laid low when struck with the ball from a .375 soft lead ball backed by about 15 grains of FFFg. I would assume that most "cowboy loads" have better ballistics than the .36 cal. cap and ball does.
Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement.

Would that be my first choice?  No.  But it will get the job done if used properly.

We hear stories of one shot stops with a .22 LR.  We hear stories of people being hit half a dozen times with the "guaranteed man stopper" .45 ACP and staying in the fight to kill several people.

 

[El CupAJoe]

Bottom line, best gunfight is the one you don't have.