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Marshal Cogburn SASS # 8454

Unique vs Trailboss

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Hi gang,

 

Haven’t reloaded for years but I‘m thinking on starting up again.  I always used a 250 gr RNF bullet with 6 grns of Unique for both pistol and rifle.  Worked perfect for me in both rifle and pistol.  However I’m 10 years older and want a low recoil load for the handgun while still using the 250 gr bullet.  I read Trailboss is low recoil and made specific for CAS.  Thoughts please...

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I don't think I'd call Trail Boss "Low recoil".     I use 5.7 grains of TB under a 200 gr. RNFP.   Lowering that bullet weight requirement will reduce your recoil.   I also use about the same in W231 for the same bullet...I wouldnt consider either to be a heavy recoil.......I think its that big piece of lead youre chucking down range that gives you the felt recoil.

 

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In my experience, Trailboss is an excellent low recoil powder.   To give an example, I was using 4895 in a Trapdoor safe loading in my 84 Springfield rifle, and it was fine.   But when I got myself a Springfield Carbine, and a Winchester 86 with a 20" barrel, that "Trapdoor safe" load became a real shoulder thumper.   I noticed that the Trailboos load for the same bullet I was using had a Trapdoor load, so I switched to Trailboss.   Recoil is now fine.   No more so than a 92 with pistol cartridges.

 

But that's an extreme example.   I have noticed that in my pistols that TB loads are noticably less stout than other loadings I have tried.  Here's another example.   I have an Uberti SAA clone in .44 Magnum.  With standard factory loads, it is quite the wrist snapper.  Even painfully so.   With even a max load of Trailboss, it is very pleasant to shoot, and not much more stouter than any of my other cowboy loads in other calibers, which I tend to use minimal loads for.  I'm sure if I were to go to a lesser load, I'd see some additional milding take place.

I use Trailboss from everything from .32 Smith and Wesson to .45 Colt and it works well in all of them.   In the aformentioned .45-70 it also works well.   It has also served me with good results in .30-40, 30-'06 bolt actions, 7 and 8MM Mauser and .303 British.  Oddly, it has not worked so well for me in .30-30.  While pleasant to shoot in that caliber, it does not seem to have the range anymore.   With the bottleneck rifles, I tend to go with a close to max charge.  With the big one, closer to a minimum.

 

 

Good luck.

 

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LD is in the right track. If you want to lower the recoil,  work up a different load with lighter bullets. 200 grain would make a felt difference in recoil from the 250 and a 160 grain would help even more. 

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To lower recoil, use lighter bullets.

Unique meters more consistently than TB.

Unique is cheaper.

Unique works very well in shotgun ammo.

OLG 

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12 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

To lower recoil, use lighter bullets.

Unique meters more consistently than TB.

Unique is cheaper.

Unique works very well in shotgun ammo.

OLG 

I've gotten in the habit of agreeing with OLG on Unique. It's the best powder I keep on the shelf, with Red Dot being my second. TB is my third choice. I like TB in my .44 mag, .45 Colt, .45-70, and .38-55 but Unique will do all those as well or better. I just like to fill those cases a little more. 

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Might be time to shoot different cartridges in ,your revolvers and rifle.  Many shoot 45 Cowboy Specials in their revolvers.  This short case with less internal volume than a 45 Colt case allows for clean burns of reduced powder charges.

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I loaned my rifle to my Dad at a shoot because his went down. He loves his TB but when I got the rifle back after 10 stages it was like he'd been shooting black powder. 

 

Anybody experience this extra dirty gun action after running TB? 

 

It was .45 and a 200 gr bullet but I don't know the powder charge.

 

Doc Nelson

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Trailboss is a rather dirty powder, leaving behind a buncha fouling, but it's easy to clean up.   A few patches with Hoppes Number 9 and it's all cleaned up.

Gunscrubber helps with those places you can't get too.

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You can't beat the Laws of Physics no matter how hard you try.  Recoil comes almost 100% from the weight and muzzle velocity of the bullet.   There is no such thing as a powder that reduces recoil.   Some powders make it easy to load light loads.   Neither of these you called out are the answer for a light load.  (Hint, try Clays - that is what a ton of cowboys shoot.  Or Red Dot)

 

If you want less recoil, you have to run a light bullet, a slow velocity, or both.   With Cowboy 45 Special cases and lighter loads and bullet, a .45 revolver will shoot well at 100 power factor or less.  THEN you will get what you seek.

 

Good luck, GJ

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It's been hit pretty hard.. use a lighter bullet. Also.. I wouldn't trade a pound of Unique for 5 lbs of Trail Boss.  JMO

 

Snakebite

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Goex has a much slower burn rate than anything mentioned thus giving more of a shove than a "kick". It will reduce recoil and greatly increase satisfaction!!:D

 

And it cleans up with hot water. 

 

CS

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Been using Winchester 231 and Trail Boss for years......I recently tried something new and it is similar to Unique but burns much cleaner.  I am using IMR Target for  .44 Spcl, .45 Colt and .45 ACP.

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First I would change to a lighter bullet, say a 200gr, and use Trailboss, it was designed to fill up the case with a small charge.  I don't shoot 45's but probably around 5.8grs. would probably work, lots of info out there.  Also I more thing, going to a lighter bullet will change your point of impact

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You also might try Hodgdon's Universal.  It has a similar though not exactly burning rate to Unique.  Burns clean.  I have not use TB, but understand that it is more consistent if you stay off the MINIMUM charges.

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Marshal Cogburn SASS # 8454 said:

Hi gang,

 

Haven’t reloaded for years but I‘m thinking on starting up again.  I always used a 250 gr RNF bullet with 6 grns of Unique for both pistol and rifle.  Worked perfect for me in both rifle and pistol.  However I’m 10 years older and want a low recoil load for the handgun while still using the 250 gr bullet.  I read Trailboss is low recoil and made specific for CAS.  Thoughts please...

 

Trail Boss is not "Low Recoil" in older black powder cartridges like the 45 Colt and 44-40. They are normal pressures at lower velocities. The so called Low Recoil refers to high power rifle cartridges and high pressure handgun cartridges like the 44 magnum. However, one would think lower velocity meant lower recoil.

Edited by Savvy Jack

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2 hours ago, Attica Jack #23953 said:

First I would change to a lighter bullet, say a 200gr, and use Trailboss, it was designed to fill up the case with a small charge.  I don't shoot 45's but probably around 5.8grs. would probably work, lots of info out there.  Also I more thing, going to a lighter bullet will change your point of impact

 

Yes and one reason I want to stay with the 250 gr bullet to avoid changing the POI.  Plus I don't want to get in the situation of loading one load for the pistol and another for the rifle.

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4 minutes ago, Marshal Cogburn SASS # 8454 said:

 

Yes and one reason I want to stay with the 250 gr bullet to avoid changing the POI.  Plus I don't want to get in the situation of loading one load for the pistol and another for the rifle.

POI is generally a function of velocity, if you have the 200 and the 250 going the same velocity at handgun distances they should shoot pretty much the same height . That’s the great thing about reloading you can Taylor the load to your gun 

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13 minutes ago, Buckshot Bob said:

POI is generally a function of velocity, if you have the 200 and the 250 going the same velocity at handgun distances they should shoot pretty much the same height . That’s the great thing about reloading you can Taylor the load to your gun 

 

I'm not arguing your point.  I believe you are correct.  But, I tend towards the lazy side and do not desire to experiment with loads.  If I go down to a 230gr or a 200gr I want to set the machine " once " to load both pistol & rifle loads.  

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Marshal Cogburn SASS # 8454 said:

I’m 10 years older and want a low recoil load for the handgun while still using the 250 gr bullet.

Recoil is a function of gun weight, ejected mass and velocity.

The most significant change is by reducing velocity.
A lower pressure load will slow the velocity.
TB burns faster than Unique.
This may/may not affect your perception of a mild or sharp type of recoil.

Using published loads for 44 Special, 240~250 grain bullet in a 2.81 lb revolver, the Minimum load of TB produces less recoil than the Minimum Unique.  These are low pressure loads for soft cast lead (BHN=7 to 8.9).

Every Unique load I have calculated produces more recoil than TB at the same maximum cartridge pressure, where BHN=9.
I start with loads optimum for the soft cast bullets I like to use, and go from there.
Unique produces a very stout recoil in 45 Colt, 250 grain bullet, 9.1 grains, 11,518 PSI and BHN=9.
A lower pressure requires softer lead.


 

Edited by bgavin

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https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6616733&postcount=11

 

Felt recoil is a subjective matter. Various factors can affect how recoil is perceived. Things like gun fit, the thickness and angle of the grip, and how the weight of the gun is distributed are some of the attributes of the gun which can influence how one perceives recoil. And how those attributes of the gun affect how the shooter perceives the recoil of the gun will be high personal to the shooter and can be affected by the shooter's unique physical attributes such as hand size, and hand and upper body strength.

So, for example, comparing two theoretical gun producing the same recoil energy, the one with the longer barrel might seem to recoil less because the added weight towards the muzzle because of the longer barrel can reduce muzzle rise, and the longer barrel reduces muzzle flash. But the only way to really know how they compare to you is for you to actually shoot them.

Recoil energy on the other hand is a precise, physical quantity that is a function of the weight (mass) of the bullet, the weight (mass) of the powder charge, the muzzle velocity of the bullet, the muzzle velocity of the powder gases, and the weight (mass) of the gun. If you have those quantities for a given load in a given gun, you can calculate the amount of recoil energy produced when that load is fired in that gun. And a heavy bullet will produce more recoil energy than a lighter bullet fired from the same gun at a comparable velocity. Note that --

  • Recoil energy is directly proportional to the mass of the ejecta, i. e., recoil energy increases as the mass of the ejecta increase. The mass of the ejecta is made up of --
     
    • The mass of the bullet; and
       
    • The mass of the gases produced by the burning powder (which is directly proportional to the mass of the powder charge).
  • Recoil energy is directly proportional to the velocity of the ejecta, i. e., recoil energy increases as the mass of the ejecta increase. The velocity of the ejecta includes --
     
    • The velocity of the bullet; and
       
    • The velocity of the burning powder gases.
  • Recoil energy is inversely proportional to the mass of the gun, i. e., as the mass of the gun increases, recoil energy decreases.


If you're interested, you can calculate the recoil energy of a given load using the following formula1:

WG = Weight of gun in pounds
WB = Weight of bullet in grains
WP = Weight of powder charge in grains
VB = Muzzle velocity of bullet in f/s
I = Interim number (Recoil Impulse in lb/sec)
VG = Recoil velocity of gun (f/s)
EG = Recoil energy of gun (ft lb)

I = [(WB * VB) + (WP * 4000)] / 225218

VG = 32.2 * (I / WG)

EG = (WG * VG * VG) / 64.4
~Frank Ettin

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8 minutes ago, bgavin said:

Recoil is a function of gun weight, ejected mass and velocity.

The most significant change is by reducing velocity.
A lower pressure load will slow the velocity.
TB burns faster than Unique.
This may/may not affect your perception of a mild or sharp type of recoil.

Using published loads for 44 Special, 240~250 grain bullet in a 2.81 lb revolver, the Minimum load of TB produces less recoil than the Minimum Unique.  These are low pressure loads for soft cast lead (BHN=7 to 8.9).

Every Unique load I have calculated produces more recoil than TB at the same maximum cartridge pressure, where BHN=9.
I start with loads optimum for the soft cast bullets I like to use, and go from there.
Unique produces a very stout recoil in 45 Colt, 250 grain bullet, 9.1 grains, 11,518 PSI and BHN=9.
A lower pressure requires softer lead.


 

OOOF...I used 6 gr of Unique with the 250 gr bullet for years...

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44 minutes ago, Marshal Cogburn SASS # 8454 said:

 

I'm not arguing your point.  I believe you are correct.  But, I tend towards the lazy side and do not desire to experiment with loads.  If I go down to a 230gr or a 200gr I want to set the machine " once " to load both pistol & rifle loads.  

Just find a load that shoots the same velocity as your old load . Without adjustable sights it’s the only thing you have to tinker with , and if your old load shot on you shouldn’t have to file your sights . 

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11 minutes ago, Buckshot Bob said:

Just find a load that shoots the same velocity as your old load . Without adjustable sights it’s the only thing you have to tinker with , and if your old load shot on you shouldn’t have to file your sights . 

 

Yup, that 6 gr of Unique shot POA in all my Colts and my rifles...

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Cowboy 45 Special + 160 gr bullet + minimum load of Red Dot (3.1- 3.5 gr) = very pleasant recoil round that my arthritis doesn't scream at.  This more than meets SASS power factor requirements.

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1 hour ago, Sixgun Seamus said:

Cowboy 45 Special + 160 gr bullet + minimum load of Red Dot (3.1- 3.5 gr) = very pleasant recoil round that my arthritis doesn't scream at.  This more than meets SASS power factor requirements.

 

Does this load function in a .45LC rifle?

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39 minutes ago, Marshal Cogburn SASS # 8454 said:

 

Does this load function in a .45LC rifle?

If you put a C45 Spl carrier in it, it will.  This carrier (like the Smith Shop makes) has a swing gate that stops the short cartridge before a second cartridge gets out on the carrier to cause a jam.   But, once you put this in, then the gun only shoots C45 Spl.

 

Me?  I just load C45 Spl for revolvers and standard .45 Colt loads for the rifle, since I never even notice the recoil of a .45 Colt 150 PF load in my 73s.

 

Good luck, GJ

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When I changed from 240gr. bullets to 200gr. bullets in my Ruger Vaqueros 44 mags., with the same powder charge, my point of impact changed from a six o'clock hold to a point of aim to point to point impact..it .didn't change anything with my rifle.  I only load one type of ammo for rifle and pistols.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Marshal Cogburn SASS # 8454 said:

 

Does this load function in a .45LC rifle?

I use them for my pistols and over the top rifle reloads. Need special carrier to use in rifle.

Edited by Sixgun Seamus

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I load a 200 gr  rnfp over 5 grains of promo(red dot) for a very mild load in 45 colt. For pistols I use 130 grain Barnstormer over 3.5 gr Promo. Very manageable wilth low felt recoil.. 

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13 hours ago, Michigan Slim said:

I've gotten in the habit of agreeing with OLG

 

The first step toward fixing a problem is admitting you have one. Good job on that. Now go seek professional help. We’re all praying for you. ;)

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55 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

The first step toward fixing a problem is admitting you have one. Good job on that. Now go seek professional help. We’re all praying for you. ;)

One too many concussions maybe? I did hit my head on the ice pretty good in February.

 

My name is Slim and I'm a Uniqueaholic……. 

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It is a long established fact that POI will normally rise in a handgun with a heavier bullet due to muzzle lift, whether slow or fast.  Also.. I've watched people over the years fret about consistency, accuracy and all such factors that the precise re-loader needs to deal with. If you are shooting ground squirrels or Bulls eye, or anything that requires such accuracy then there are many things that the re-loader has control over and should do. If your are shooting at a 18" target that the stand is sitting on your foot (like the majority of targets are now days), any bullet existing the barrel is likely to hit the target if the gun is point in the general direction. There is no GOOD reason that every shooter doesn't clean most stages now days.   :P

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When I was shooting Ruger Vaqueros I used a 250 LRNFP with a fairly low charge of Trail Boss, giving me around 650 f/s and POA=POI without filing the sights.

I switched to Colt's and those loads were very sloppy. 

 

Finally I slugged the chambers on all three and found them to be .454!  I tracked down some .454 250 gr LRNFP bullets and started a series of tests using

WW231, Bullseye, Tite Group, Trail Boss and Unique, all freshly bought.  I started near minimum and worked up to mid range loads, and found that out of all of them

Unique at around 6.9 grains gave me very good (best) accuracy and around 730 f/s velocity from my 7 1/2 inch Colt.  The recoil is quite fine, and the rifle accuracy is

good enough for 25-30 yard bonus targets.

 

The guns all clean up easily using Hoppe's, so not a real issue!

 

I've come full circle in 45 years of shooting the Colt .45 and am back to Unique!

 

Shadow Catcher

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