Starr Revolver

[Whiskey Hicks]

I was watching Unforgiven again for the first time in several years and noticed Munny’s Starr revolver. I hadn’t been aware double-action percussion guns were a thing.

 

Would they be SASS legal if fired with manual hammer cocks each shot?

[Ace_of_Hearts]

5 minutes ago, Whiskey Hicks said:

I was watching Unforgiven again for the first time in several years and noticed Munny’s Starr revolver. I hadn’t been aware double-action percussion guns were a thing.

 

Would they be SASS legal if fired with manual hammer cocks each shot?

No. It would not be legal.

 

[Whiskey Hicks]

3 hours ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

No. It would not be legal.

 

Thank you for the reply! I know it may have seemed like a silly question.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

In my opinion, pre-20th century revolvers such as the Starr, Colt 77 and Colt 78, Smith and Wesson New Model 3 DA and a very limited handful of others SHOULD be SASS Legal, as long as they are operated in SA mode.  Where do you draw the line?   Well, even though they do predate the turn of the century, I'd not allow anything with a swing out cylinder.   It may be an arbitrary distinction, but I think it's one that fits into the feel of the game.  

 

But they are not legal, so we can't make use of 'em.  Too bad cuz some of those old guns are really, really interesting.  

I wish the powers that be would at least consider this concept.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

1 hour ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

In my opinion, pre-20th century revolvers such as the Starr, Colt 77 and Colt 78, Smith and Wesson New Model 3 DA and a very limited handful of others SHOULD be SASS Legal, as long as they are operated in SA mode.  Where do you draw the line?   Well, even though they do predate the turn of the century, I'd not allow anything with a swing out cylinder.   It may be an arbitrary distinction, but I think it's one that fits into the feel of the game.  

 

But they are not legal, so we can't make use of 'em.  Too bad cuz some of those old guns are really, really interesting.  

I wish the powers that be would at least consider this concept.

So should we change the name from SASS to SA/DASS?

 

Will you ever be happy with what SASS had to offer?

 

Phantom

[Rafe Conager SASS #56958]

Pietta makes a starr single action that is sass  legal https://www.pietta.it/1858-starr-eng

Rafe

[Waxahachie Kid #17017 L]

I have the Pietta single action Starr revolver.  I wanted the single action, over the double action, not only to be able to shoot it in C.A.S., but because in the double action one, your back sight (which is a notch in the hammer) never seems to come into focus when you shoot double action.  You seem to basically shoot it using the front sight only, on the double action model.  Yep, the double action model can be cocked, with your thumb, and shot in a single action way...but, it is slow and awkward, and that sort of defeats the purpose of having a double action revolver.  It is really not set up to shoot In the single action mode. 

As I said, I own the single action Starr. Let me tell you, it is a challenge to cock it, because of the hammer's design, and because my thumb is not that long.

You have to really reach for the hammer...unless you are shooting it with two hands, and can use your off-thumb to cock it.  If you are only using one hand, it can be a challenge to reach that hammer.   The grip is a little different too, and takes a little getting use to, compared to the Colt and Remington's.  

A really fun revolver, however, and easy to break down, and clean, which is a big plus when using black powder.  It really doesn't have a cylinder pin, so you don't get that fouling build up, like you do in the other designs. 

I read somewhere it was the third most popular revolver in the war-between-the-states, behind Colt, and Remington.

I have also read that the double action Starr came out first, and after many complaints, and much begging, they came out with the single action. 

 

My Two Bits.

W.K.

 

 

[Rafe Conager SASS #56958]

The starr  double action has a very heavy trigger pull! This throws your aim off, unforgiven shows this. The single action would work for sass but the shape of the handle is a issue.

Rafe 

[Patagonia Pete]

19 hours ago, Whiskey Hicks said:

I was watching Unforgiven again for the first time in several years and noticed Munny’s Starr revolver. I hadn’t been aware double-action percussion guns were a thing.

 

Would they be SASS legal if fired with manual hammer cocks each shot?

Very interesting revolver ... thks for posting.

I can't believe how many of the "real ones" are still available out there (Gunbroker etc) ... 

[Whiskey Hicks]

2 hours ago, Patagonia Pete said:

Very interesting revolver ... thks for posting.

I can't believe how many of the "real ones" are still available out there (Gunbroker etc) ... 

Thank you indulging a neophyte’s rambles and questions.

[watab kid]

ive often wondered at this as well as the russian nagants might fall in this realm as well - dates work / actions dont in one version while the other does but they are not six shooters , and webleys found their way onto the plains in those days as well , but im OK with the restrictions applied by those that have set them , they are not over restrictive in any way , shoot your odd balls [and mine] in side matches that allow 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

8 hours ago, watab kid said:

ive often wondered at this as well as the russian nagants might fall in this realm as well - dates work / actions dont in one version while the other does but they are not six shooters , and webleys found their way onto the plains in those days as well , but im OK with the restrictions applied by those that have set them , they are not over restrictive in any way , shoot your odd balls [and mine] in side matches that allow 

 

The Nagant is specifically said to be okay in the Shooters Handbook.   No, you can't operate the DA version in SA mode, doing so would mean you hate the game.   But, there IS one small piece in the DA version that you can easily remove and it turns the gun into the SA version.   That is legal.

I know of no other old time DA that can be converted in this fashion.

[Texas John Ringo, SASS #10138]

On a side note I have Cooper percussion Revolver made in 1864 that is double action. It is .31 caliber and looks like Colt 1849 Baby Dragoon and works great. You can shoot DA or Single action and has a good trigger in both.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

5 minutes ago, Texas John Ringo, SASS #10138 said:

On a side note I have Cooper percussion Revolver made in 1864 that is double action. It is .31 caliber and looks like Colt 1849 Baby Dragoon and works great. You can shoot DA or Single action and has a good trigger in both.

 

Thar reminds me of something else.   I've seen pictures of a DA version of the '58 Remington.  Don't know anything about them though.

[Steel-eye Steve SASS #40674]

On 7/26/2020 at 12:55 PM, Waxahachie Kid #17017 L said:

I have the Pietta single action Starr revolver.  I wanted the single action, over the double action, not only to be able to shoot it in C.A.S., but because in the double action one, your back sight (which is a notch in the hammer) never seems to come into focus when you shoot double action.  You seem to basically shoot it using the front sight only, on the double action model.  Yep, the double action model can be cocked, with your thumb, and shot in a single action way...but, it is slow and awkward, and that sort of defeats the purpose of having a double action revolver.  It is really not set up to shoot In the single action mode. 

 

I have a fair amount of experience with both SA and DA Starr repos. You should not use your thumb to SA cock a double action Starr. The DA Starr actually has two "triggers." The first trigger cocks the revolver, as it is pulled back past the cocking point it contacts the firing trigger at the rear of the trigger guard. There is a toggle switch on the rear of the cocking trigger which acts as a DA/SA selector. When set to SA mode, the travel of the cocking trigger is restricted and cannot reach the firing trigger. To SA fire the gun, you set the selector to SA, pulling the "trigger" only cocks the revolver, then reach behind the cocking trigger with your trigger finger to pull the firing trigger. Using your thumb to cock a DA Starr will most likely jam it. The single action Starrs work just like any SA revolver.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

8 minutes ago, Steel-eye Steve SASS #40674 said:

I have a fair amount of experience with both SA and DA Starr repos. You should not use your thumb to SA cock a double action Starr. The DA Starr actually has two "triggers." The first trigger cocks the revolver, as it is pulled back past the cocking point it contacts the firing trigger at the rear of the trigger guard. There is a toggle switch on the rear of the cocking trigger which acts as a DA/SA selector. When set to SA mode, the travel of the cocking trigger is restricted and cannot reach the firing trigger. To SA fire the gun, you set the selector to SA, pulling the "trigger" only cocks the revolver, then reach behind the cocking trigger with your trigger finger to pull the firing trigger. Using your thumb to cock a DA Starr will most likely jam it. The single action Starrs work just like any SA revolver.

 

Most intriguing.  You could make the case that with the toggle in the right position, it is an SA revolver.   

Is there a conversion cylinder for these things?   

[McCandless]

Just about all the double action revolvers of the mid to late 19th century were either, unwieldy, difficult to use (as in a long hard trigger pull), or fragile (as in the 1877/1878).  Use in the occasional local match if your Match Director allows it.  Heck, I even shot a pair of Nagants in a local match... once.

The novelty quickly wears off.

 

Using originals of the old DAs?  They certainly weren't made for the kind of use we put on them.   We shoot a gun more in one year than the makers thought the gun might fire in a lifetime.

 

You want to shoot it?  Do so locally, talk to your Match Director.  No need to ask the entire SASS organization to change just for you.

[Patagonia Pete]

2 minutes ago, McCandless said:

> snip <

We shoot a gun more in one year than the makers thought the gun might fire in a lifetime.

> snip < 

Yep +1 ... 

[Red Cent]

[Sedalia Dave]

Single Action on top and Double Action on the bottom.  Notice the difference in triggers.

 

[Sedalia Dave]

 

 

[Sedalia Dave]

50 minutes ago, Red Cent said:

 

What model revolver is that?

[Oddnews SASS# 24779]

In addition to the Starrs, there were quite a few British percussion DA revolvers, mostly on the Tranter patent and made by various companies. There are also many period pinfire revolvers, and almost all of them are DA -- very hard to find on in SA, really. At one time I thought it would be fun to go pinfire for revolver and shotgun, but I've grown lazy.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

12 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

What model revolver is that?

 

That is a USFA Omni Potent.   It is a single action only replica of the Colt 1878 DA revolver.   They are specifically said to be okay in the Shooters Handbook, and they are quite rare.  I have never seen one in real life, only pictures.   The 78 was, even more than the 1877 "Lightning" a double action version of the SAA.

 

Here's a pic of two real 78's...

 

The top one is a fairly generic .44-40 made in the 1880's.   The bottom is genuine US Army Surplus in .45 Colt.   The DA trigger pull on these is VERY heavy.  Although the longer trigger on the GI one does make it a little easier to operate that way.   Cocking these things SA is kind of awkward and requires much shifting of the hand and adjusting of your grip to do it.   Unless maybe if you've got a REALLY long thumb.

All of that being said, they are interesting and fun guns to shoot.   Personally, if I could find an Omni-Potent I'd like to own one, but I don't think USFA made very many of them before it went insane and put all it's eggs in the ZIPGun basket.

 

I've always thought it would be fun to do a side by side comparison of the USFA to a real Colt.

[Red Hooker]

On 7/29/2020 at 8:53 AM, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

 

That is a USFA Omni Potent.   It is a single action only replica of the Colt 1878 DA revolver.   They are specifically said to be okay in the Shooters Handbook, and they are quite rare.  I have never seen one in real life, only pictures.   The 78 was, even more than the 1877 "Lightning" a double action version of the SAA.

 

Here's a pic of two real 78's...

 

The top one is a fairly generic .44-40 made in the 1880's.   The bottom is genuine US Army Surplus in .45 Colt.   The DA trigger pull on these is VERY heavy.  Although the longer trigger on the GI one does make it a little easier to operate that way.   Cocking these things SA is kind of awkward and requires much shifting of the hand and adjusting of your grip to do it.   Unless maybe if you've got a REALLY long thumb.

All of that being said, they are interesting and fun guns to shoot.   Personally, if I could find an Omni-Potent I'd like to own one, but I don't think USFA made very many of them before it went insane and put all it's eggs in the ZIPGun basket.

 

I've always thought it would be fun to do a side by side comparison of the USFA to a real Colt.

Lower one is officially called Model 1902. Unofficially called Phillipine Model. Incorrectly called Alaskan model, due to large trigger guard, supposedly to accommodate use of gloves. There is almost no difference in amount of space in front of trigger guard , where gloved trigger finger would go. Trigger guard is larger DOWNWARD, to accommodate longer trigger. This gives more leverage to pull against heavy hammer spring used to fire harder service primers.

 Red