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MBFields

Uberti 73 rifle shells pulling hard

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Posted (edited)

When running rifle it starts becoming hard to pull fired shell out. Do not have to use excessive force but need to use more oomph than normal. It is more random and can be going fine and then feel hard pull sometimes 2,3,4 in a row. First stage the other day ran smooth than started to do this on next stages. Use starline brass, 38 special. Micro measured new brass and loaded brass and fired brass all basically same size, .3770-.3775. Stumped, someone mentioned headspace, how do you check that besides just looking? Thanks.

Edited by MBFields

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Have a fellow SASS shooter that his Uberti started doing that. Never could get it to stop and finally had to change the barrel. That fixed it. The gunsmith that did the barrel swap said that his original chamber was oval instead of round. He tried to get it repaired under warranty but they would not do it because it was short stroked so if you try make sure you return it to original before you send it in.

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Morning MB      Had one couple years ago.   The right side link started to rub on the loading gate.  Loading gate was starting to bend so would rub when the link went by.  Couple times locked lever tight.   Look at inside of right cover for signs of contact     GW

You going to come out a play this weekend   ???

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Hey GW, will take a peak at that. Not sure about this weekend yet. Also noticed on some of fired brass has black soot back on shell a ways, could blowby be an issue and if so is that a crimping issue?

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had the problem with blow by, increased  powder load a couple tens and problem gone

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34 minutes ago, MBFields said:

Hey GW, will take a peak at that. Not sure about this weekend yet. Also noticed on some of fired brass has black soot back on shell a ways, could blowby be an issue and if so is that a crimping issue?

No, its lack of powder- titewad!!       Yes a heavy crimp will help ignition     GW

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57 minutes ago, Von Dutch, SASS # 7995 said:

Do you clean your chamber real good with a chamber brush including the forcing cone? 

Yes, would run it through after each stage. Thx.

 

47 minutes ago, G W Wade said:

Morning MB      Had one couple years ago.   The right side link started to rub on the loading gate.  Loading gate was starting to bend so would rub when the link went by.  Couple times locked lever tight.   Look at inside of right cover for signs of contact     GW

You going to come out a play this weekend   ???

Checked that and no rub or drag marks on side plate and loading gate fine.

 

7 minutes ago, G W Wade said:

No, its lack of powder- titewad!!       Yes a heavy crimp will help ignition     GW

Think I used to shoot titewad powder.:lol: Going to up powder a bit and maybe tighten crimp a hair.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, MBFields said:

Yes, would run it through after each stage. Thx.

 

Checked that and no rub or drag marks on side plate and loading gate fine.

 

Think I used to shoot titewad powder.:lol: Going to up powder a bit and maybe tighten crimp a hair.

I'm not talking about one those bore snakes! as far as I'm concerned they are about as good as tits on a bullfrog! and it will not remove build up in your forcing cone only a chamber brush with solvent will.

Edited by Von Dutch, SASS # 7995
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If you are getting blow-by and your power is kinda dirty burning like unique the un-burnt power will blow back and cause the jam. Some brass is worse than others. I had a 38 spec Uberti 66 once that was used with black powder. The harder/stiffer brass like nickel plated brass would almost always try to jam. If you want to verify this use some grease on your ammo about every third one. Even with the nickel-ed brass it would run OK

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About a year ago I had the exact same problem.  It was driving me crazy because if wouldn't happen all the time.  Sometimes it would be one round a stage and then at the next match it would only happen twice during 5 stages.

 

First I checked that my chamber had all the carbon build-up out of it.  A Slixprings scraper works well for that task (see the link below):

 

https://www.slixprings.com/proddetail.php?prod=SliXprings-Scraper

 

My second step was to put a patch in the chamber soaked in Kroil and let it sit overnight.  The next day I used a stiff brass brush and clean patches.  I could not believe the crud that came out of the chamber.  That helped, but I was still having a couple hard extractions each match.

 

What finally cured my problem was to chamber check my empty brass (not deprimed or resized) after wet tumbling and drying.  I use a .357 chamber for .38s.  I was shocked to find that about one out of every 4 - 6 cases would not drop in and out of the case checker.  I have always used a chamber checker on loaded rounds and have rarely found a bad round, but I had never checked fired brass to see if it fit.  I have a 5 gallon bucket of used brass (no nickle) and normally I won't discard a piece until it splits.  I think that some of the brass has been fired so many times that it balloons out after it is fired.

 

Now I always chamber check my clean, but unresized, brass before reloading and the problem has disappeared.  If I wasn't so cheap, I would go buy all new Starline brass and I could skip that step.

 

Good luck with your problem and let us know if you get it sorted out.

 

 

 

 

 

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Using Clay's powder. Tried to case check empties in my rifle by putting one in at a time and running lever back and forth the length of case and it seemed that the cases with blow back on them had a tendency to drag over the cleaner ones. Am loading up some rounds with a tad more powder and hair tighter crimp to see what happens. Thanks.

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Keep us informed on what you find. I have a rifle doing the same thing. This is a new rifle. If I squirt a little balistol in the chamber before each stage it seems to take care of the problem. I know what your talking about when you mention the sooty brass. Looks like case is not sealing the chamber. Thing is, it’s the same load I’ve been using with clays powder for years and have never had any problems with any other rifle. I believe it is a chamber problem. 

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I have a Cimarron '66 in 38 Special. My cases come out expanded a fair amount. I am a bit puzzled at your brass not expanding. Mine come out 0.381". The chamber is big, about 0.384".

 

I had a bit of an issue getting a load that would not leak soot, without getting too much velocity. Not all brass is the same, but as a rule it takes about a 10,000 psi load to expand the brass to seal. It doesn't help that most of us are working the lever before the bullet leaves the barrel. The 44-40 was designed for rifle, it has very thin brass neck and sealing is not an issue even at lowish velocities. I just bought another 73, this one in 45LC (and yes that is exactly what is stamped on the barrel), and I'm looking forward to developing a load for it. It will be my Wild Bunch rifle, if I ever finish getting kit for that game. 

 

Trail Boss works at a relatively high pressure to give you a relatively slow velocity. This can work for you in certain instances. 

 

My load is with a 146 gr bullet and the velocity is app 950 fps. I'm using up a stash of 452AA, so my exact data isn't too useful to anyone else. Truthfully I used up all my 452AA and had to buy another keg, which just got delivered this week. Still had 9.5#'s in it, should last me a long time as I only use it in my rifle load now. 

 

I run my bore snake through it after every match, clean enough for the cowboys I shoot with.

 

BB

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2 hours ago, doc roy l. pain said:

Keep us informed on what you find. I have a rifle doing the same thing. This is a new rifle. If I squirt a little balistol in the chamber before each stage it seems to take care of the problem. I know what your talking about when you mention the sooty brass. Looks like case is not sealing the chamber. Thing is, it’s the same load I’ve been using with clays powder for years and have never had any problems with any other rifle. I believe it is a chamber problem. 

Same with me, rifle basically new bought one of the wr anniversary rifles and started to shoot at wr this year.Only rifle have had problems with. In fact my previous uberti was maybe cleaned once a year if that and no issues.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, "Big Boston" said:

another 73, this one in 45LC (and yes that is exactly what is stamped on the barrel)

 

Silly Italians, what do they know?

They are the same folks who originally thought that .38 Special only came with 130 grain FMJ bullets, so they designed the first 73s with a 1.500" or so lifter length!

Edited by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708

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8 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

 

Silly Italians, what do they know?

They are the same folks who originally thought that .38 Special only came with 130 grain FMJ bullets, so they designed the first 73s with a 1.500" or so lifter length!

 

I wish they would bring that out again, perfect for 38 LC. 

 

BB

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22 hours ago, Flash said:

Have a fellow SASS shooter that his Uberti started doing that. Never could get it to stop and finally had to change the barrel. That fixed it. The gunsmith that did the barrel swap said that his original chamber was oval instead of round. He tried to get it repaired under warranty but they would not do it because it was short stroked so if you try make sure you return it to original before you send it in.

One thing did notice when microd' fired brass that as turned in hand my readout changed implying brass not true round. Not sure if normal or not.

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Posted (edited)
   22 hours ago,  Flash said: 

Have a fellow SASS shooter that his Uberti started doing that. Never could get it to stop and finally had to change the barrel. That fixed it. The gunsmith that did the barrel swap said that his original chamber was oval instead of round. He tried to get it repaired under warranty but they would not do it because it was short stroked so if you try make sure you return it to original before you send it in.

25 minutes ago, MBFields said:

One thing did notice when microd' fired brass that as turned in hand my readout changed implying brass not true round. Not sure if normal or not.

The first thing we determined was it was not the ammo because the ammo would shoot in all other rifles and none was sticking. Then we cleaned the hell out of the chamber using scrappers for carbon and everything we could think of but 1 or 2 out of 20 would stick after they were shot even after the cleaning.

This rifle was just under warranty so it was sent back to Cimmeron but they refused to cover it under warranty because it had a short-stroke kit in it but they had originally agreed to change the barrel.

He had them return the rifle and sent it to a local gunsmith that changed the barrel and his diagnosis was the chamber was not round. That is the story. Hope this info helps!

Edited by Flash
Correct spelling

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After some very scientific testing;):blink: I have come to the conclusion that I have no idea. Loaded some rounds with a hair tighter crimp and upped powder by couple tenths. First round out if rifle pulled hard. Out of twenty rounds 3 pulled hard and those 3 micd' .3775to .3805. All fired rounds had blowback still on them. Tried some practice rounds that are 105 gr crimped in groove and had blowback. Rifle rounds loaded are 127 gr badman w/ no crimp groove. Tried rifle rounds in 4 different pistols, 2 usfa, 1 Colt, 1 uberti sass pro. The uberti had the most blowback of them but hardly anything to speak if on one round, the other 3 basically clean or normal? So now not sure where going. Thanks everyone.

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Roughly how many rounds has this rifle fired.  

20,000, 50,000, ?

 

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Maybe 700

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Posted (edited)

This would be a new rifle then. I am in a very bad internet area and can't copy and past this.  Go to www.wheelergunworks.com on the left side select helpful hints then ammo in a rifle if this is not the issue call me the number is on the web site.

Edited by Lefty Wheeler

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7 hours ago, Lefty Wheeler said:

This would be a new rifle then. I am in a very bad internet area and can't copy and past this.  Go to www.wheelergunworks.com on the left side select helpful hints then ammo in a rifle if this is not the issue call me the number is on the web site.

Not the problem with mine. I have 3 other 73’s and a marlin. I can grab 10 random rounds out of an ammo can and load them into any of the other rifles. Only the one mentioned earlier has a problem with empties sticking and hard to extract. 

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Call me tomorrow Doc.

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1873 extraction resistance issue.

First look at the file marked Ammo in a rifle. If this is not the issue you may have a defective chamber or another problem.  

If this is a rifle with the new style bolt it may be related to poor workmanship at the factory in Italy.

First let's talk about small caliber bolt history in a Uberti 1873 rifle. 
Years ago Uberti made a very good bolt that was held together with a small pin. They redesigned the bolt so the extension was held in by a wedge shaped keeper and the bolt was still a very good bolt that lasted for years and years of cowboy action.  Then something changed, people speculate they changed the steel or manufacturer and the lower tab started breaking.  At first for a year or so Uberti either didn't know or didn't realize they had a problem and continued making the same bolt.  Then about the W4XXXX serial number they made a modification.  The tab was beefed up to resemble I'll call a mini large caliber tab design.  This had a design flaw by having a sharp corner at the face of the bolt and started to fail.  This ended about the late W5XXXX or very early W6XXXX when they introduced the removable tab.  This has so far proven to be a good design.

 

Now to get to our problem / solution,  first you need to understand the dynamics of what is happening.  After a round is fired the force on the bolt (with a short stroke) has a tendency to pull it down as it moves rearward. When the only support is a narrow piece of material rearward of the carrier. The bottom of the bolt rides on this hole.  
The bottom of the bolt needs to be round.  The new design of the tab is flat on the bottom, so, it needs to be modified a LITTLE.  The problem comes in at the factory when a worker on a belt sander removes material off the bottom of the bolt and not just the edges of the tab.
This allows the bolt to drop and drag the round out of the chamber with excess friction on the bottom. To increase the problem they usually remove more material in the center than the ends causing the bolt to rise fighting the links.

Solution: replace the tab, break the sharp corners improve the transition at the rear of the insert. The tab is not listed in the diagram it is in the parts list at the bottom. The pin is .060" a 1/16" punch .0625" ground down to .058" works.  

When I get a chance I'll post this on www.wheelergunworks.com  under helpful hints.  

Lefty

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Had the "sticking empties' start occurring around WR 2019. Very intermittent but when it happened, it was hard to lever. Checked brass when I got to unloading table and all fell in and out of chamber so it was impossible to tell which brass was the culprit. 

This was about the time I had opened a new box of 500 45LC from Starline and they got mixed in with some of my older brass.. Been using Starline for many years. It was also around the time I started using coated bullets so I really had to start to dig to find out what was happening. Purchased one of the Carbon Scrapers but no carbon. Bought bore camera, had some lead in bore but not in chamber. Scrubbed chamber anyway with SS Chamber Brush till I was happy.

Went out and tried it again and got the same hang ups. Went back and tightened up crimp and no change. 

Tossed out all the older brass and still had the same problem.

Called Starline and they suggested that I put it in the oven at around 430 for 25 minutes.. Didnt seem to help. 

Then the light came on that all this started with the new brass being mixed in so I ordered 500 Winchester.

I loaded them the same bullet, charge, crimp and primer. Went to local match and no hangups.

Shot annual match the next week (100 rounds) no hangups.

I relayed the info to Starline and they are supposed to replace the brass.

Gonna keep trying different things but right now it looks like the brass was the problem.

 

JM

 

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1 hour ago, J. M. BROWN, SASS # 27309 said:

Had the "sticking empties' start occurring around WR 2019. Very intermittent but when it happened, it was hard to lever. Checked brass when I got to unloading table and all fell in and out of chamber so it was impossible to tell which brass was the culprit. 

This was about the time I had opened a new box of 500 45LC from Starline and they got mixed in with some of my older brass.. Been using Starline for many years. It was also around the time I started using coated bullets so I really had to start to dig to find out what was happening. Purchased one of the Carbon Scrapers but no carbon. Bought bore camera, had some lead in bore but not in chamber. Scrubbed chamber anyway with SS Chamber Brush till I was happy.

Went out and tried it again and got the same hang ups. Went back and tightened up crimp and no change. 

Tossed out all the older brass and still had the same problem.

Called Starline and they suggested that I put it in the oven at around 430 for 25 minutes.. Didnt seem to help. 

Then the light came on that all this started with the new brass being mixed in so I ordered 500 Winchester.

I loaded them the same bullet, charge, crimp and primer. Went to local match and no hangups.

Shot annual match the next week (100 rounds) no hangups.

I relayed the info to Starline and they are supposed to replace the brass.

Gonna keep trying different things but right now it looks like the brass was the problem.

 

JM

 

I shoot 45 LC Star brass and I started getting the same problem just two or three times out of 50 to 60 rds at a match the last time it happened when I got home I looked the fired brass over real good and found some that were not round, and they had not been stepped on! I cleaned them tried to resize them and they still were not round ? when they went through the sizer they felt funny like they were spring steel? Out they went! Some of the brass I have gotten from Star is not what it used to be! I ordered some Remington brass and its a step above it cost more than Star,I guess that you get what you pay for!

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Starline brass is harder than Win brass. So it doesn't obdurate to seal the chamber and you will get more blowby . 

 

As for measuring the fired brass,  it's waste of time.  No two piece will expand the same. Plus brass is somewhat elastic and shrinks back slightly.

 

If you want to know what you chamber looks like you need to make a casting of the chamber. Get you some of this;

CERROSAFE® CHAMBER CASTING ALLOY

 

Works great for broke off cases too.  Plug the bore with a dry patch just in front of the chamber.  Pour it in and the broke off piece comes out with the casting.

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Update: Replaced bottom bolt tab on rifle as Lefty Wheeler suggested. Just shot 30 rounds through it and did not pull hard on any. Seems to have fixed it, will know more after Saturday match. BIG thank you to Lefty Wheeler for the heads up. My tab had been sanded down so back portion was flat and evidently causing bolt to hang up. This is basically new rifle, only 5-700 rounds through it. Read Lefty's post about this.

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Lefty is very intelligent, very analytical. He doesn't let preconceived notions get in the way of researching the problem at hand. Nice guy to boot.

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On 7/24/2020 at 2:21 PM, Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 said:

If you are getting blow-by and your power is kinda dirty burning like unique the un-burnt power will blow back and cause the jam. Some brass is worse than others. I had a 38 spec Uberti 66 once that was used with black powder. The harder/stiffer brass like nickel plated brass would almost always try to jam. If you want to verify this use some grease on your ammo about every third one. Even with the nickel-ed brass it would run OK

Hmmmm,

And Steve told me "never" use nickel-plated brass in your rifle (a Rossi 92 he revved up)

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One more time. Shot match yesterday and first ten rounds fine then started acting up again. Back to the drawing board. Thanks to everyone!

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Time to do a chamber cast and look for out of round, bulges, scratches, ringed, oversize chamber.

Good luck, GJ

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