Question on re-staging the rifle at the end of the string

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

Good Afternoon:

A question about re-staging a rifle after shooting came up at today's shoot.

A shooter shoots the rifle string, re-stages the rifle closed, and goes to the next gun.

At the end of the string, TO has him open the gun & show it empty.

no call.

I thought this was the way to proceed if the shooter was in the process of re-staging a open, empty gun, but the prop caused it to close.

I did not think that a shooter could just lay down a long gun without even trying to open it.

 

I went to the shooter's handbook, page 15, and found this:

"Rifles will be cleared and discarded with their barrels pointing in a safe direction. If the action of a rifle closes after being cleared, the shooter will, at the conclusion of the stage, show it to be clear to the CRO/TO. No person other than the competitor may handle the long gun prior to opening the action and showing it to be clear."

 

Does "cleared" mean empty?

And does this mean that a shooter does not even have to try opening the long gun before laying it down?

Your wisdom will be appreciated.

Thanks

--Dawg 

[Crisco]

Yes, cleared means empty.  If no empty comes out when checked, then it had to have been open at some point before being discarded.  No longer matters how it got closed.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

I'm just trying to figure out what "Cleared" could possibly mean other than "Empty".

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

2 hours ago, Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329 said:

Does "cleared" mean empty?

SHB pg 44

 

Quote

Cleared  –  no  live  or  empty  cases  in  or  on  the  chamber, magazine,  action,  or  carrier

 

 

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

OK, I figured "cleared" means empty, but the question is really about the shooter just laying down a closed rifle, as opposed to opening before laying it down.

Again, my impression has always been that the shooter must at least make an effort to discard the gun open & empty.

Am I wrong?

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

A rifle must only  "be  emptied  and  discarded  with  their  barrels  pointed  safely downrange."

 

MSV if they played it down without ejecting the last round.

 

SHB pg 17-18

Quote

 

Long  guns  will  be  emptied  and  discarded  with  their  barrels  pointed  safely downrange.    This  condition  may  be  corrected  on  the  clock,  prior  to  the  next  round being  fired.    If  the  long  gun  is  not  discarded  empty  prior  to  the  next  firearm  being fired,  only  the  shooter  may  return  to  open  and/or  clear  the  firearm  at  the  end  of the  stage  under  the  observation  of  the  CRO/TO.    Should  an  empty  casing/hull  be ejected  or  found  in  the  action  or  chamber,  or  a  live  round  on  the  carrier  of  an  open action,  a  Minor  Safety  Violation  (MSV)  will  be  assessed.    However,  if  the  action is  opened,  and  a  live/unfired  round  is  ejected,  a  Stage  DQ  (SDQ)  will  be  assessed for  a  long  gun  with  a  “live  round  under  a  cocked  hammer  having  left  the  shooter’s hands”.    In  this  case,  there  is  no  opportunity  to  correct  this  condition  before  firing the  next firearm, as  the  penalty  takes  effect upon  leaving  the  shooter’s  hands.

o  If the  long  gun is  the  last  firearm  used,  it  must  be  cleared  prior  to  it  leaving the  shooters  hand(s) at the  unloading  area.

o  This  does  not  apply  to  firearms  shot  out  of  sequence,  made  safe,  and  then restaged. 

 

 

SDQ if they ejected the last round, closed the rifle, and changed positions in order to set the rifle down with the Hammer back on the rifle.

 

SHB pg 23

Quote

Changing  location  with  a  long  gun  with  the  action  closed  and  the  hammer  cocked (exception  for  rifle  from  the  loading  table  to  the  stage  with  no  round  chambered). 

 

If they shoot all 10, eject the last one, close the rifle, and set it down immediately, no call.

 

If they shoot 10, eject the last one, close the rifle, put the hammer down on an empty chamber, and then run across the bay and throw the rifle down on the table, no call.

 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

12 minutes ago, Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329 said:

OK, I figured "cleared" means empty, but the question is really about the shooter just laying down a closed rifle, as opposed to opening before laying it down.

Again, my impression has always been that the shooter must at least make an effort to discard the gun open & empty.

Am I wrong?

The "effort" is in the shooter levering / pumping the gun open after the last shot.

 

After that, they are good to go.

 

Phantom

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

Thanks Jack:

That's the info I was looking for.

--Dawg

 

And Thanks Phantom -- That's also what I wanted to know.

--Dawg

 

[Rye Miles #13621]

1 hour ago, Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329 said:

Good Afternoon:

A question about re-staging a rifle after shooting came up at today's shoot.

A shooter shoots the rifle string, re-stages the rifle closed, and goes to the next gun.

At the end of the string, TO has him open the gun & show it empty.

no call.

I thought this was the way to proceed if the shooter was in the process of re-staging a open, empty gun, but the prop caused it to close.

I did not think that a shooter could just lay down a long gun without even trying to open it.

 

I went to the shooter's handbook, page 15, and found this:

"Rifles will be cleared and discarded with their barrels pointing in a safe direction. If the action of a rifle closes after being cleared, the shooter will, at the conclusion of the stage, show it to be clear to the CRO/TO. No person other than the competitor may handle the long gun prior to opening the action and showing it to be clear."

 

Does "cleared" mean empty?

And does this mean that a shooter does not even have to try opening the long gun before laying it down?

Your wisdom will be appreciated.

Thanks

--Dawg 

Good question, I was there not spotting but I saw that. I was thinking the same thing Dawg was asking. The shooter finished the 10 rounds and I think the lever closed when he threw it on the table. I think that’s what happened and if so that’s a no call right??

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

7 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

Good question, I was there not spotting but I saw that. I was thinking the same thing Dawg was asking. The shooter finished the 10 rounds and I think the lever closed when he threw it on the table. I think that’s what happened and if so that’s a no call right??

as long as the rifle is empty, and the barrel pointed in a safe direction, and the shooter didn't change positions with a closed, cocked rifle (even if it's empty), it's a no-call.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

6 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

Good question, I was there not spotting but I saw that. I was thinking the same thing Dawg was asking. The shooter finished the 10 rounds and I think the lever closed when he threw it on the table. I think that’s what happened and if so that’s a no call right??

Nothing matters as far as what went on during the shooting string. 

 

If the long gun is shown clear by the shooter at the end of the stage it's a no call.

 

Really simple.

 

Phantom

[John Kloehr]

1 hour ago, Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329 said:

... the prop caused it to close...

 

I went to the shooter's handbook, page 15, and found this:

"... If the action of a rifle closes after being cleared..."

So the action was open when the shooter was setting it down? Sounds that way.

 

From those quote snippets, the rifle was clear (not just unloaded, there was no fired case in the chamber). "Clear" to me means "no live rounds or spent cases in the chamber and an empty magazine."

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

3 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

So the action was open when the shooter was setting it down? Sounds that way.

 

From those quote snippets, the rifle was clear (not just unloaded, there was no fired case in the chamber). "Clear" to me means "no live rounds or spent cases in the chamber and an empty magazine."

That's not quite the definition...

 

As PWB would say: RTM.

 

Phantom

[Ace_of_Hearts]

The responsibility of an empty LONG GUN is on the shooter.

 

the shooter will, at the conclusion of the stage, show it to be clear to the CRO/TO

 

Clear = EMPTY

 

How or when it became empty is of no consequence. Only that it is empty. And just to punctuate the statement.... Even if the shooter deliberately closes the action.

Counting rounds becomes important, especially on "round count" stages where there is no specific target order and the possibility of only shooting nine and setting down a closed and cocked long gun with a round in the chamber is higher.

It has become more common to discard double barrel shotguns closed and empty when there is vertical or staging other than on a flat surface. Some stages are written now to allow initial staging with double shotguns closed when staging doubles would be difficult or a perceived disadvantage.

 

[John Kloehr]

19 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

Good question, I was there not spotting but I saw that. I was thinking the same thing Dawg was asking. The shooter finished the 10 rounds and I think the lever closed when he threw it on the table. I think that’s what happened and if so that’s a no call right??

So to put words in your mouth (bear with  me), you then also think the shooter opened the action after the 10th shot.

 

And if there was no spent case in the chamber, the shooter must have opened the action after the 10th shot. Your thought is confirmed.

 

So the gun was clear. So agree, no call.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Just an FYI regarding the "evolution" of the current verbiage.
Initially, some of the combined WB/ROC members were considering adding "accidentally closes" to the rule.
That phrase was removed due to it being extremely subjective regarding intent.
The procedure for handling a closed-action long gun upon completion of the stage was added instead.

The applicable definitions can be found in the SHB "Glossary of Terms" on pages 44-47.

[Nasty Newt # 7365]

So, after all these years, it is now okay to discard a rifle with the action closed?

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

3 minutes ago, Nasty Newt # 7365 said:

So, after all these years, it is now okay to discard a rifle with the action closed?

Rifle and shotgun... Been this way for a while now.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Closed but empty!

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

48 minutes ago, Nasty Newt # 7365 said:

So, after all these years, it is now okay to discard a rifle with the action closed?

 

44 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Rifle and shotgun... Been this way for a while now.

 

Since 2015:

Significant Changes April 2015

[Ace_of_Hearts]

1 hour ago, Nasty Newt # 7365 said:

So, after all these years, it is now okay to discard a rifle long gun with the action closed?

Since - See above post.

 

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

Thanks PaleWolf for that post. 

--Dawg

[Nasty Newt # 7365]

Wow.  I missed that one.

 

[Ace_of_Hearts]

10 minutes ago, Nasty Newt # 7365 said:

Wow.  I missed that one.

 

If you would come and shoot with the Eldorado Cowboys once in awhile you would be more up to date!

 

[John Kloehr]

12 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

That's not quite the definition...

 

As PWB would say: RTM.

 

Phantom

OK, looked it up even though it was quoted earlier in this thread (and PWB added the citation).. I left out the action and carrier. Though common sense still applies. But I never mind dotting "i"s and crossing "t"s when it comes to safety.

Quote

Cleared – no live or empty cases in or on the chamber, magazine, action, or carrier.

 

[Silver Creek Jack]

Ok not to continue to beat this dead horse but I have seen a few  times when a shooter laid (threw) a long gun down, the action closed and started to the next gun to continue the stage and the TO stopped the shooter  and said open the shotgun/rifle, the shooter went back and opened the action on the long gun (which was empty) then proceeded to finish the stage. Should the TO remain silent until the shooter finishes the stage, and if this happens (TO detainees shooter under this circumstance) Should the shooter get a re-shoot?   SCJ

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

44 minutes ago, Silver Creek Jack said:

Ok not to continue to beat this dead horse but I have seen a few  times when a shooter laid (threw) a long gun down, the action closed and started to the next gun to continue the stage and the TO stopped the shooter  and said open the shotgun/rifle, the shooter went back and opened the action on the long gun (which was empty) then proceeded to finish the stage.

 

Should the TO remain silent until the shooter finishes the stage,

and if this happens (TO detainees shooter under this circumstance) Should the shooter get a re-shoot?  

 

SCJ

 

YES

and

T/O should offer a reshoot for "Range Officer interference" (SHB p.21)
REF also "Pocket RO Card" (SHB p.43) re "impeding shooter progress"

 

 

[Ramblin Gambler]

1 hour ago, Silver Creek Jack said:

Ok not to continue to beat this dead horse but I have seen a few  times when a shooter laid (threw) a long gun down, the action closed and started to the next gun to continue the stage and the TO stopped the shooter  and said open the shotgun/rifle, the shooter went back and opened the action on the long gun (which was empty) then proceeded to finish the stage. Should the TO remain silent until the shooter finishes the stage, and if this happens (TO detainees shooter under this circumstance) Should the shooter get a re-shoot?   SCJ

 

Have you seen it since 2015?  Prior to these changes that was what you had to do to avoid the penalty. 

[Nasty Newt # 7365]

10 hours ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

If you would come and shoot with the Eldorado Cowboys once in awhile you would be more up to date!

 

Well, it's true I haven't done much traveling to other matches lately.  I probably knew it and forgot it, which happens to me a lot these days. 

 

[Ace_of_Hearts]

You need more women in your life Newt! 

It keeps you on your toes!

 

[Silver Creek Jack]

5 hours ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

 

Have you seen it since 2015?  Prior to these changes that was what you had to do to avoid the penalty. 

Yup sure have, but if it happens again I can correct it ( nicely)!  SCJ

[Nasty Newt # 7365]

If the shooter fires all rifle rounds and restages the rifle closed, without ejecting the last case, does the TO tell the shooter to go back and eject the case, or wait until the end and assess the penalty?

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

1 hour ago, Nasty Newt # 7365 said:

If the shooter fires all rifle rounds and restages the rifle closed, without ejecting the last case, does the TO tell the shooter to go back and eject the case, or wait until the end and assess the penalty?

Wait...unless he/she is absolutely sure that the shooter didn't do a final levering/pumping to expel the last spent cartridge...or...just always keep your mouth shut.

 

I choose the former. 

 

Phantom

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

1 hour ago, Nasty Newt # 7365 said:

If the shooter fires all rifle rounds and restages the rifle closed, without ejecting the last case, does the TO tell the shooter to go back and eject the case, or wait until the end and assess the penalty?

 

If the T/O is "watching the gun" and is certain that a long gun was NOT opened at the end of the shooting string to eject the last empty case, it would be considered "proper coaching" to advise the shooter to "open the action".
 

Quote

The TO watches the shooter – and the shooters guns- for unsafe acts, correct target engagement, and stage procedures.

RO1 p.78

 

Quote

Proper coaching or no coaching at all is NOT considered RO interference and will never be grounds for a reshoot.

SHB p.19

 

 

[Nasty Newt # 7365]

Thank you both.  Seriously, I appreciate it.