Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329 Posted July 18, 2020 Share Posted July 18, 2020 Good Afternoon: A question about re-staging a rifle after shooting came up at today's shoot. A shooter shoots the rifle string, re-stages the rifle closed, and goes to the next gun. At the end of the string, TO has him open the gun & show it empty. no call. I thought this was the way to proceed if the shooter was in the process of re-staging a open, empty gun, but the prop caused it to close. I did not think that a shooter could just lay down a long gun without even trying to open it. I went to the shooter's handbook, page 15, and found this: "Rifles will be cleared and discarded with their barrels pointing in a safe direction. If the action of a rifle closes after being cleared, the shooter will, at the conclusion of the stage, show it to be clear to the CRO/TO. No person other than the competitor may handle the long gun prior to opening the action and showing it to be clear." Does "cleared" mean empty? And does this mean that a shooter does not even have to try opening the long gun before laying it down? Your wisdom will be appreciated. Thanks --Dawg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crisco Posted July 18, 2020 Share Posted July 18, 2020 Yes, cleared means empty. If no empty comes out when checked, then it had to have been open at some point before being discarded. No longer matters how it got closed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted July 18, 2020 Share Posted July 18, 2020 I'm just trying to figure out what "Cleared" could possibly mean other than "Empty". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted July 18, 2020 Share Posted July 18, 2020 2 hours ago, Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329 said: Does "cleared" mean empty? SHB pg 44 Quote Cleared – no live or empty cases in or on the chamber, magazine, action, or carrier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329 Posted July 18, 2020 Author Share Posted July 18, 2020 OK, I figured "cleared" means empty, but the question is really about the shooter just laying down a closed rifle, as opposed to opening before laying it down. Again, my impression has always been that the shooter must at least make an effort to discard the gun open & empty. Am I wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted July 18, 2020 Share Posted July 18, 2020 A rifle must only "be emptied and discarded with their barrels pointed safely downrange." MSV if they played it down without ejecting the last round. SHB pg 17-18 Quote Long guns will be emptied and discarded with their barrels pointed safely downrange. This condition may be corrected on the clock, prior to the next round being fired. If the long gun is not discarded empty prior to the next firearm being fired, only the shooter may return to open and/or clear the firearm at the end of the stage under the observation of the CRO/TO. Should an empty casing/hull be ejected or found in the action or chamber, or a live round on the carrier of an open action, a Minor Safety Violation (MSV) will be assessed. However, if the action is opened, and a live/unfired round is ejected, a Stage DQ (SDQ) will be assessed for a long gun with a “live round under a cocked hammer having left the shooter’s hands”. In this case, there is no opportunity to correct this condition before firing the next firearm, as the penalty takes effect upon leaving the shooter’s hands. o If the long gun is the last firearm used, it must be cleared prior to it leaving the shooters hand(s) at the unloading area. o This does not apply to firearms shot out of sequence, made safe, and then restaged. SDQ if they ejected the last round, closed the rifle, and changed positions in order to set the rifle down with the Hammer back on the rifle. SHB pg 23 Quote Changing location with a long gun with the action closed and the hammer cocked (exception for rifle from the loading table to the stage with no round chambered). If they shoot all 10, eject the last one, close the rifle, and set it down immediately, no call. If they shoot 10, eject the last one, close the rifle, put the hammer down on an empty chamber, and then run across the bay and throw the rifle down on the table, no call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted July 18, 2020 Share Posted July 18, 2020 12 minutes ago, Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329 said: OK, I figured "cleared" means empty, but the question is really about the shooter just laying down a closed rifle, as opposed to opening before laying it down. Again, my impression has always been that the shooter must at least make an effort to discard the gun open & empty. Am I wrong? The "effort" is in the shooter levering / pumping the gun open after the last shot. After that, they are good to go. Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329 Posted July 18, 2020 Author Share Posted July 18, 2020 Thanks Jack: That's the info I was looking for. --Dawg And Thanks Phantom -- That's also what I wanted to know. --Dawg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted July 18, 2020 Share Posted July 18, 2020 1 hour ago, Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329 said: Good Afternoon: A question about re-staging a rifle after shooting came up at today's shoot. A shooter shoots the rifle string, re-stages the rifle closed, and goes to the next gun. At the end of the string, TO has him open the gun & show it empty. no call. I thought this was the way to proceed if the shooter was in the process of re-staging a open, empty gun, but the prop caused it to close. I did not think that a shooter could just lay down a long gun without even trying to open it. I went to the shooter's handbook, page 15, and found this: "Rifles will be cleared and discarded with their barrels pointing in a safe direction. If the action of a rifle closes after being cleared, the shooter will, at the conclusion of the stage, show it to be clear to the CRO/TO. No person other than the competitor may handle the long gun prior to opening the action and showing it to be clear." Does "cleared" mean empty? And does this mean that a shooter does not even have to try opening the long gun before laying it down? Your wisdom will be appreciated. Thanks --Dawg Good question, I was there not spotting but I saw that. I was thinking the same thing Dawg was asking. The shooter finished the 10 rounds and I think the lever closed when he threw it on the table. I think that’s what happened and if so that’s a no call right?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted July 18, 2020 Share Posted July 18, 2020 7 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said: Good question, I was there not spotting but I saw that. I was thinking the same thing Dawg was asking. The shooter finished the 10 rounds and I think the lever closed when he threw it on the table. I think that’s what happened and if so that’s a no call right?? as long as the rifle is empty, and the barrel pointed in a safe direction, and the shooter didn't change positions with a closed, cocked rifle (even if it's empty), it's a no-call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted July 18, 2020 Share Posted July 18, 2020 6 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said: Good question, I was there not spotting but I saw that. I was thinking the same thing Dawg was asking. The shooter finished the 10 rounds and I think the lever closed when he threw it on the table. I think that’s what happened and if so that’s a no call right?? Nothing matters as far as what went on during the shooting string. If the long gun is shown clear by the shooter at the end of the stage it's a no call. Really simple. Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kloehr Posted July 18, 2020 Share Posted July 18, 2020 1 hour ago, Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329 said: ... the prop caused it to close... I went to the shooter's handbook, page 15, and found this: "... If the action of a rifle closes after being cleared..." So the action was open when the shooter was setting it down? Sounds that way. From those quote snippets, the rifle was clear (not just unloaded, there was no fired case in the chamber). "Clear" to me means "no live rounds or spent cases in the chamber and an empty magazine." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted July 18, 2020 Share Posted July 18, 2020 3 minutes ago, John Kloehr said: So the action was open when the shooter was setting it down? Sounds that way. From those quote snippets, the rifle was clear (not just unloaded, there was no fired case in the chamber). "Clear" to me means "no live rounds or spent cases in the chamber and an empty magazine." That's not quite the definition... As PWB would say: RTM. Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace_of_Hearts Posted July 18, 2020 Share Posted July 18, 2020 The responsibility of an empty LONG GUN is on the shooter. the shooter will, at the conclusion of the stage, show it to be clear to the CRO/TO Clear = EMPTY How or when it became empty is of no consequence. Only that it is empty. And just to punctuate the statement.... Even if the shooter deliberately closes the action. Counting rounds becomes important, especially on "round count" stages where there is no specific target order and the possibility of only shooting nine and setting down a closed and cocked long gun with a round in the chamber is higher. It has become more common to discard double barrel shotguns closed and empty when there is vertical or staging other than on a flat surface. Some stages are written now to allow initial staging with double shotguns closed when staging doubles would be difficult or a perceived disadvantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kloehr Posted July 18, 2020 Share Posted July 18, 2020 19 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said: Good question, I was there not spotting but I saw that. I was thinking the same thing Dawg was asking. The shooter finished the 10 rounds and I think the lever closed when he threw it on the table. I think that’s what happened and if so that’s a no call right?? So to put words in your mouth (bear with me), you then also think the shooter opened the action after the 10th shot. And if there was no spent case in the chamber, the shooter must have opened the action after the 10th shot. Your thought is confirmed. So the gun was clear. So agree, no call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 Just an FYI regarding the "evolution" of the current verbiage. Initially, some of the combined WB/ROC members were considering adding "accidentally closes" to the rule. That phrase was removed due to it being extremely subjective regarding intent. The procedure for handling a closed-action long gun upon completion of the stage was added instead. The applicable definitions can be found in the SHB "Glossary of Terms" on pages 44-47. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nasty Newt # 7365 Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 So, after all these years, it is now okay to discard a rifle with the action closed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 3 minutes ago, Nasty Newt # 7365 said: So, after all these years, it is now okay to discard a rifle with the action closed? Rifle and shotgun... Been this way for a while now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder SASS #13056 Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 Closed but empty! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 48 minutes ago, Nasty Newt # 7365 said: So, after all these years, it is now okay to discard a rifle with the action closed? 44 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: Rifle and shotgun... Been this way for a while now. Since 2015: Significant Changes April 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace_of_Hearts Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 1 hour ago, Nasty Newt # 7365 said: So, after all these years, it is now okay to discard a rifle long gun with the action closed? Since - See above post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329 Posted July 19, 2020 Author Share Posted July 19, 2020 Thanks PaleWolf for that post. --Dawg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nasty Newt # 7365 Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 Wow. I missed that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace_of_Hearts Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 10 minutes ago, Nasty Newt # 7365 said: Wow. I missed that one. If you would come and shoot with the Eldorado Cowboys once in awhile you would be more up to date! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kloehr Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 12 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: That's not quite the definition... As PWB would say: RTM. Phantom OK, looked it up even though it was quoted earlier in this thread (and PWB added the citation).. I left out the action and carrier. Though common sense still applies. But I never mind dotting "i"s and crossing "t"s when it comes to safety. Quote Cleared – no live or empty cases in or on the chamber, magazine, action, or carrier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Creek Jack Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 Ok not to continue to beat this dead horse but I have seen a few times when a shooter laid (threw) a long gun down, the action closed and started to the next gun to continue the stage and the TO stopped the shooter and said open the shotgun/rifle, the shooter went back and opened the action on the long gun (which was empty) then proceeded to finish the stage. Should the TO remain silent until the shooter finishes the stage, and if this happens (TO detainees shooter under this circumstance) Should the shooter get a re-shoot? SCJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 44 minutes ago, Silver Creek Jack said: Ok not to continue to beat this dead horse but I have seen a few times when a shooter laid (threw) a long gun down, the action closed and started to the next gun to continue the stage and the TO stopped the shooter and said open the shotgun/rifle, the shooter went back and opened the action on the long gun (which was empty) then proceeded to finish the stage. Should the TO remain silent until the shooter finishes the stage, and if this happens (TO detainees shooter under this circumstance) Should the shooter get a re-shoot? SCJ YES and T/O should offer a reshoot for "Range Officer interference" (SHB p.21) REF also "Pocket RO Card" (SHB p.43) re "impeding shooter progress" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramblin Gambler Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 1 hour ago, Silver Creek Jack said: Ok not to continue to beat this dead horse but I have seen a few times when a shooter laid (threw) a long gun down, the action closed and started to the next gun to continue the stage and the TO stopped the shooter and said open the shotgun/rifle, the shooter went back and opened the action on the long gun (which was empty) then proceeded to finish the stage. Should the TO remain silent until the shooter finishes the stage, and if this happens (TO detainees shooter under this circumstance) Should the shooter get a re-shoot? SCJ Have you seen it since 2015? Prior to these changes that was what you had to do to avoid the penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nasty Newt # 7365 Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 10 hours ago, Ace_of_Hearts said: If you would come and shoot with the Eldorado Cowboys once in awhile you would be more up to date! Well, it's true I haven't done much traveling to other matches lately. I probably knew it and forgot it, which happens to me a lot these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace_of_Hearts Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 You need more women in your life Newt! It keeps you on your toes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Creek Jack Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 5 hours ago, Ramblin Gambler said: Have you seen it since 2015? Prior to these changes that was what you had to do to avoid the penalty. Yup sure have, but if it happens again I can correct it ( nicely)! SCJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nasty Newt # 7365 Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 If the shooter fires all rifle rounds and restages the rifle closed, without ejecting the last case, does the TO tell the shooter to go back and eject the case, or wait until the end and assess the penalty? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 1 hour ago, Nasty Newt # 7365 said: If the shooter fires all rifle rounds and restages the rifle closed, without ejecting the last case, does the TO tell the shooter to go back and eject the case, or wait until the end and assess the penalty? Wait...unless he/she is absolutely sure that the shooter didn't do a final levering/pumping to expel the last spent cartridge...or...just always keep your mouth shut. I choose the former. Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 1 hour ago, Nasty Newt # 7365 said: If the shooter fires all rifle rounds and restages the rifle closed, without ejecting the last case, does the TO tell the shooter to go back and eject the case, or wait until the end and assess the penalty? If the T/O is "watching the gun" and is certain that a long gun was NOT opened at the end of the shooting string to eject the last empty case, it would be considered "proper coaching" to advise the shooter to "open the action". Quote The TO watches the shooter – and the shooters guns- for unsafe acts, correct target engagement, and stage procedures. RO1 p.78 Quote Proper coaching or no coaching at all is NOT considered RO interference and will never be grounds for a reshoot. SHB p.19 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nasty Newt # 7365 Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 Thank you both. Seriously, I appreciate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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