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SpanAM Sidematch?


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From time to time we read about, and some us have participated in BAMM, GAMM and other unusual side matches.   Well, along the same lines, how about a SpanAM side match?

 

SpanAm standing for Spanish American War.   It's closer to, and could be argued, a part of, the era in which CAS is all about than the above mentioned, and it could be a lot of fun.  Given how the Philippine Insurrection was in some ways an outgrowth or an extension of that war, that will be taken into consideration for gun choices.  It would be a 2 gun match.

 

Pistol:  Colt SAA with 5-1/2" barrel, in .45 Colt, OR Colt 1878 in military configuration in .45 Colt OR Colt DA .38 in .38 Long Colt OR Smith and Wesson Model 1899 in .38 Long Colt or .38 Special OR the Colt 1909 in .45 Colt.  That last gun might be too much of an outlier, but it was on the front line in the final stages of the Insurrection.

 

Rifle:  US Krag Rifle/Carbine/Short rifle configurations, OR Winchester 95 in US Military Musket or Carbine configuration.  All in .30-40 Krag.  

 

Shotgun:  None.

 

Questions to consider:   Trapdoor Springfields were still in use and did see combat.   Should they be allowed?   Maybe to take the place of the shotgun?   One Pistol or two?  What about using a Mauser to represent what the Spanish used?  What would the Spanish sidearm have been?

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Isn't this forum supposed to be about COWBOY Action Shooting?

 

There was a lot of crap going on in the world during the last quarter of the 19th Century... Doesn't mean it fits with COWBOY.

 

Phantom

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H.K. we do what you are suggesting at our cas club monthly when we hold a BAM match alongside of the cowboy shooters.  It can be done but traditional sass shooters unfortunately have issues as Phantom has pointed out. Not wanting to start something just saying that you should approach your clubs officers and members to see what they think. I suggested a boltgun match [a year before it became popular] to my clubs members and it took off big time with more boltgunners than cowboys usually participating nowadays. Good luck. Pm me if you have questions about how we do it. Stay safe and Happy 4th. 

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I like it as  a  side match sounds like fun.  Why wouldn't it be cowboy? Lots of the men who fought in it were cowboys,  Bucky Oniel was a sheriff in  Prescott and roosevelt was the cowboy president.  The guns fit the times, you could even add the 97 pump shotgun.

Rafe 

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Check out the Grand Army of the Frontier.(GAF)

 

Best solution we have here is to hold those matches on a different day. Now we no longer have to listen to the peanut gallery B*%$h, moan, and complain because we are having more fun than they are. 

 

Baring that put all the non-SASS shooters on their own posse. Even if that means there are only 4 or 5 shooters. I have been the MD for our local Cody Dixon matches for several years now, and we have no problem having the time of our lives with just a handful of shooters. 

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Why segregate your shooters, the boltgun shooters will take longer on a given stage than lever action rifle shooters will. Disperse them evenly [assuming multiple berms and scenarios] and your posses finish at the same time and rotate to the next scenario. With 12-16 shooters we run two posses, one working and one shooting and everything is in one large berm. A krag carbine and 2 saa’s are more cowboy than the ‘modern’ Henry rifle or B western imo. And I would not be adversed to the 1895 shooting with us, it would be faster on the first five but a lot slower on the second five with it’s slow loading. Will it hold 5 in the mag with an mty chamber? 

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1 hour ago, Baltimore Ed said:

Why segregate your shooters, the boltgun shooters will take longer on a given stage than lever action rifle shooters will. Disperse them evenly [assuming multiple berms and scenarios] and your posses finish at the same time and rotate to the next scenario. With 12-16 shooters we run two posses, one working and one shooting and everything is in one large berm. A krag carbine and 2 saa’s are more cowboy than the ‘modern’ Henry rifle or B western imo. And I would not be adversed to the 1895 shooting with us, it would be faster on the first five but a lot slower on the second five with it’s slow loading. Will it hold 5 in the mag with an mty chamber? 

 

Ed I challenge you to hold such a match. You are in for a few surprises. Walk through the peanut gallery through out the match and listen carefully. You'll hear things said that will make you ashamed that some people are on your posse.

 

It is really unfair to the bolt gun, Cody Dixon etc shooters when spotters tend to do a really poor job because:

A. They cannot be bothered to learn a different target sequence than everybody else.

B. They cannot pay attention and use their eyes to see a hit vice just listening for a ding.

C. They don't want shooters there slowing them down especially when the weather is too hot or too cold. 

 

C is true even when the shooter is shooting SASS like everybody else if they are slow. I have bit my tongue so many times that I rather than get into a confrontation where I know I'll loose my temper I have chosen to vote with my feet.

 

My sincerest wish for a few people that I have had the displeasure to shoot with is that they soon become the shooter they enjoy making fun of.

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23 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

. They don't want shooters there slowing them down especially when the weather is too hot or too cold. 

 

C is true even when the shooter is shooting SASS like everybody else if they are slow. I have bit my tongue so many times that I rather than get into a confrontation where I know I'll loose my temper I have chosen to vote with my feet.

 

My sincerest wish for a few people that I have had the displeasure to shoot with is that they soon become the shooter they enjoy making fun of.

I really can't believe you said this. I've been cowboy shooting for a decent amount of time and have shot at MANY different clubs in numerous States and I've NEVER encountered this kind of person.

 

Phantom

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On 7/5/2020 at 6:37 AM, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

 

From time to time we read about, and some us have participated in BAMM, GAMM and other unusual side matches.   Well, along the same lines, how about a SpanAM side match?

 

SpanAm standing for Spanish American War.   It's closer to, and could be argued, a part of, the era in which CAS is all about than the above mentioned, and it could be a lot of fun.  Given how the Philippine Insurrection was in some ways an outgrowth or an extension of that war, that will be taken into consideration for gun choices.  It would be a 2 gun match.

 

Pistol:  Colt SAA with 5-1/2" barrel, in .45 Colt, OR Colt 1878 in military configuration in .45 Colt OR Colt DA .38 in .38 Long Colt OR Smith and Wesson Model 1899 in .38 Long Colt or .38 Special OR the Colt 1909 in .45 Colt.  That last gun might be too much of an outlier, but it was on the front line in the final stages of the Insurrection.

 

Rifle:  US Krag Rifle/Carbine/Short rifle configurations, OR Winchester 95 in US Military Musket or Carbine configuration.  All in .30-40 Krag.  

 

Shotgun:  None.

 

Questions to consider:   Trapdoor Springfields were still in use and did see combat.   Should they be allowed?   Maybe to take the place of the shotgun?   One Pistol or two?  What about using a Mauser to represent what the Spanish used?  What would the Spanish sidearm have been?

 

 

 

 

 

 

IMO just let them shoot those guns in your BAMM match.  We let in anything from the bolt action era, including your Krag,  and any service hand gun.  You get more shooters that way.  

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I find it quite interesting that so many folks are resistant to having a JFF side match at the club level with period firearms that aren't approved for main or side matches.  Even at my home club, I get a cool reception at suggesting such a thing.  It's almost like no one wants to step outside their box. 

 

How cool would it be to have a Rifleman side match stage where you shot a 1884 Springfield, a 1894 Winchester, a 1895 Winchester, and a 1899 Savage?  Think of all the other possibilities for era firearms.

 

It's not about changing the game, it's about adding to it.

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I think back to when wildbunch was a side match and how resistant folks were,  now we have local, state national and world championships in wildbunch. If its not your game ok don't shoot it. But I would love to dust of great grandpas old krag and match it up with my 5 1/2" peacemaker.

Rafe

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1 hour ago, Rafe Conager SASS #56958 said:

I think back to when wildbunch was a side match and how resistant folks were,  now we have local, state national and world championships in wildbunch. If its not your game ok don't shoot it. But I would love to dust of great grandpas old krag and match it up with my 5 1/2" peacemaker.

Rafe

Yes, SASS (meaning the Wild Bunch) hated Wild Bunch before they loved it.  :)

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Dave, we successfully have these WB and BAM matches several times a year as I’ve said along with monthly cas shooters but I know what you are saying. I am very spoiled in that at ECSASS EVERYONE except for a few of our most elder shooters participate in the ‘work’ that’s involved in this sport. But I have run shoots and been on posses that had shooters with the mindset that they paid their money to shoot not to work which makes it hard on everybody which contributes to people getting burned out.  And heaven help the poor old guy that’s shooting at the speed of molasses in December. As to your concerns usually there are 5 cas rifle targets and 5 BAM targets with the BAM targets farther out but we’re still only a 50 yd berm. Shooting order for each long gun is the same, sg and handguns are the same and the shooter’s movements are the same. As I said there no mistaking the sound that a .30 cal or 7mm 170 plus gr lead boolit makes when it hits a steel plate. No mouse phart rifle loads here. Can’t do anything about the weather, so man up, leave or get a consensus with others and call the match. We’ve unfortunately done that when it was unsafe or unbearable to continue on.  All of this doesn’t diminish the fact that cas is a great sport but it needs to expand and broaden not limit itself. With the changing of the guard so to speak maybe it will.

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10 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

The WB Side Matches weren't anything like the WB matches of today.

You're right.  I think for the most part they were better than what SASS came up with.

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To do the event and not include an iconic firearm like the Trapdoor  just doesn't seem right.   Please include it.    Doing something a little different as a side match isn't the end of the world and it just may be a hit.

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1 hour ago, Lou Graham, # 26112 said:

To do the event and not include an iconic firearm like the Trapdoor  just doesn't seem right.   Please include it.    Doing something a little different as a side match isn't the end of the world and it just may be a hit.

 

Would you say to use it instead of the shotgun, in addition to the repeating rifle, or as an allowable substitute?

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8 hours ago, Lou Graham, # 26112 said:

To do the event and not include an iconic firearm like the Trapdoor  just doesn't seem right.   Please include it.    Doing something a little different as a side match isn't the end of the world and it just may be a hit.

I agree with you about trap doors.  We tried it in BAMM as an alternative to a bolt action and it didn't work for us.  Most of our rifle sequences are ten or fifteen rounds, and took some people way too long with the trap door.  So we wrote two rifle sequences, the one for the trap door being different with fewer rounds.  That was cumbersome and confusing.  BUT Cowboy Earl came up with another game, Cowboy Three Rifle.  It takes a main match rifle, a rifle caliber lever action, and a single shot.  The pistol caliber rifle has its own targets and the rifle caliber and the single shots have their own, or may share some.  We've done it a couple of times and it's a blast.

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40 minutes ago, Nasty Newt # 7365 said:

I agree with you about trap doors.  We tried it in BAMM as an alternative to a bolt action and it didn't work for us.  Most of our rifle sequences are ten or fifteen rounds, and took some people way too long with the trap door.  So we wrote two rifle sequences, the one for the trap door being different with fewer rounds.  That was cumbersome and confusing.  BUT Cowboy Earl came up with another game, Cowboy Three Rifle.  It takes a main match rifle, a rifle caliber lever action, and a single shot.  The pistol caliber rifle has its own targets and the rifle caliber and the single shots have their own, or may share some.  We've done it a couple of times and it's a blast.

Sure wish I lived closer to you folks:D

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11 hours ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

Sure wish I lived closer to you folks:D

 

Me three.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love the other cowboy shooters here in New England and our local and "regional" matches are always well run and lots of fun.   But the side matches tend to just be "speed this, speed that, and speed the other thing."  The, for lack of a better term, "creative" side matches seem to be in other parts of the country.

Last year I went out to a big match in Nevada, and one of the side matches was called, "The Rifleman."  You had to shoot at a handful of targets with your main match rifle, and then a handful of targets at the far end of the bay with your long range repeating rifle.    I found it to be interesting.   Didn't win, but it was fun to do a match with my big loop 92 [what else would use in a stage called "The Rifleman?"] and my 86.

I suggested to the MD that it might be fun to add a .22 rifle to that side match.  He appeared thoughtful.

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I built a monthly match once that had a stage that used revolvers, 2 rifles and no sg. The second rifle was a .22 Marlin. I’ve also done that with .22 handguns. The issue with having a stage gun is handloads., you need to use factory ammo. If you blow up your gun with your handload the club or range aren't liable but if the stage gun blows with handloads and the shooter gets hurt it gets complicated real quick. My preferences are smaller targets, occasionally we get out the half sized sass marshals but they are placed a hair closer. Contrary to what sass and wb have evolved into speed isn’t everything. Variety keeps it interesting.

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On 7/6/2020 at 2:30 PM, Rafe Conager SASS #56958 said:

I think back to when wildbunch was a side match and how resistant folks were,  now we have local, state national and world championships in wildbunch. If its not your game ok don't shoot it. But I would love to dust of great grandpas old krag and match it up with my 5 1/2" peacemaker.

Rafe

This SpanAM thing is just like early Wildbunch.  Just expand Wildbunch with all the SpanAM guns. 

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54 minutes ago, Assassin said:

This SpanAM thing is just like early Wildbunch.  Just expand Wildbunch with all the SpanAM guns. 

 

Not really....

 

Early Wild Bunch used pretty much anything up till 1918.  The SpanAM idea tries to be a little more limiting to things that still existed at the end of the cowboy era and marked it's transition.  Old style Wild Bunch had a lot of truly Post Cowboy era stuff.

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On 7/9/2020 at 9:32 AM, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

 

Would you say to use it instead of the shotgun, in addition to the repeating rifle, or as an allowable substitute?

If you have repeating rifle, you can add single shot.  I think minimizing use of shotgun would be a good exchange.  A long time ago, I used to go to a club that added single shot into the regular cowboy stages.  One stage would be all single shot, a couple others might have 3-5 rounds.  It depends a lot on what you have to work with for a range as you need deeper bays for the rifles.  I wouldn't trade repeating rifle for Trapdoor, we know that trick doesn't work, thanks to General Custer.;)

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Sounds like early WB was what Bull Schmitt and his gang were doing in WASA [Western Action Shootist Association].  Fixed sight single actions, double actions and self loaders of pre 1916 design were allowed.  A great idea imo. My club is a sass/wasa club as we allow both cas philosophies to happily coexist every month. [We voted ourselves out of sass and into wasa after the Great Rulebook Dustup many years ago but still use the sass safety rules.] The safety and clothing rules are basically the same just the handguns parameters are different. On a non specified themed match day I generally do a Rico Fardan and carry a pair of Colts, a New Service and a 1911. Two truly great handguns.

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