Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum
Sign in to follow this  
Abilene, SASS # 27489

"Leadfoot" Artie Fly's APP hangfire

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)

@Phantom, SASS #54973, @Captain Bill Burt, et all...would adding a few drops of oil or water down the cone render the powder inert? However, that being said, my wondering about making the powder inert is not required per the SHB.

 

For those that missed it in the ROII

Quote

The Timer Operator shall be prepared for the unique problems associated with cap and ball revolvers. These items include potential “hang-fires,” “cap only” ignition, and a complete failure to fire. In a “cap only” ignition and failure to fire, the Frontiersman should be allowed to continue firing the remaining chambers. The TO shall not confuse these occurrences as potential squib loads. Misfires during the Course of fire by Frontiersman will require the Timer Operator to accommodate clearing the firearm after completing the stage. The Timer Operator shall always require these clearances be accomplished down range at the firing line. It is acceptable to recap and discharge the still loaded chamber(s) or simply uncap the charged chambers.

 

So...

 

On 6/26/2020 at 2:39 AM, Cat Brules said:

That whole scenario sounds very troubling.  Plus, apparently there was no comment or take charge by the Unloading Table Officer, either.  

I think Artie and individually, those around him, are very lucky.

 

Cat Brules

 

10 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Well since Cat Brules will not elaborate on his comment, perhaps someone else would know what an UTO would have been able to do in this particular case that would have eliminated the realized end result.

 

Always willing to learn things ya know.

 

Phantom


As long as the UTO confirms that the percussion revolver is uncapped - or all the rounds fired off, his work is technically done. I don't see anything in the OP that states the UTO was to blame. 

 

And, if we want to get technical about it, it is not the UTO's responsibility, but it is rather the job of the CRO/TO to ensure that this was handled appropriately:

 

SHB pg 14

Quote

Percussion revolvers must only be capped at the loading table or while on the course of fire. The cap over a nipple must never be seated using the percussion revolver’s own hammer. The Chief Range Officer/Timer Operator (CRO/TO) shall require any misfires to be cleared on the firing line by either recapping and firing that chamber, or by uncapping the misfired chamber.

 

As an aside, I wonder what his holster looks like post accident. It is quite possible that the round that struck his foot did not exit the barrel at all, thus having even more reduced the projectile's potential velocity - but that is purely speculative on my part. 

Edited by Branchwater Jack SASS #88854
fixed typo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:


As long as the UTO confirms that the percussion revolver is uncapped - or all the rounds fired off, his work is technically done. I don't see anything in the OP that states the UTO was to blame....

 

And, if we want to get technical about it, it is not the UTO's responsibility, but it is rather the job of the CRO/TO to ensure that this was handled appropriately:

 

SHB pg 14

 

Thanks for that Branchwater! This makes me wonder whether the SHB needs a slight change. Since it states that a misfire can be made safe simply by uncapping. How do we know whether it’s a misfire or a hangfire?  In this case removing the caps did NOT make this firearm safe. Perhaps any misfire/hangfire should only be considered safe when the bullet is out of the gun.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Well since Cat Brules will not elaborate on his comment, perhaps someone else would know what an UTO would have been able to do in this particular case that would have eliminated the realized end result.

 

Always willing to learn things ya know.

 

Phantom

I’ll give it a shot Phantom.  We can discuss further this week when I come to HoW.

 

If a c&b shooter has a chamber that does not fire, then it must be cleared on the line.  The firing line is designed to be shot at.  Most unloading tables are not.  The TO has to be capable to stop the line and allow the shooter to clear the pistol.  This can be done after the clock has stopped.  Cartridge gun shooters aren’t penalized if they have a bad round in their pistol.  The c&b shooter needs to be ready to declare “broke” or accrue the time on the clock if they so choose to clear the pistol on the clock.

 

So please, if you are a TO, then watch the gun and count the rounds down range.  You have three spotters.  They will do their job.  Please watch the gun for me and keep me from being stupid.

 

There have been some inventive ways discussed to clear the ball from the chamber.  I’m going to look into the CO2 cartridge gadget.  I’ve not been unfortunate to have been placed in the scenario described by Artie.  The experience in the room may have some information about how long to wait before trying to remove the nipple or use a bullet puller.  

 

Hope this helps.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, Tucker McNeely said:

I’ll give it a shot Phantom.  We can discuss further this week when I come to HoW.

 

If a c&b shooter has a chamber that does not fire, then it must be cleared on the line.  The firing line is designed to be shot at.  Most unloading tables are not.  The TO has to be capable to stop the line and allow the shooter to clear the pistol.  This can be done after the clock has stopped.  Cartridge gun shooters aren’t penalized if they have a bad round in their pistol.  The c&b shooter needs to be ready to declare “broke” or accrue the time on the clock if they so choose to clear the pistol on the clock.

 

So please, if you are a TO, then watch the gun and count the rounds down range.  You have three spotters.  They will do their job.  Please watch the gun for me and keep me from being stupid.

 

There have been some inventive ways discussed to clear the ball from the chamber.  I’m going to look into the CO2 cartridge gadget.  I’ve not been unfortunate to have been placed in the scenario described by Artie.  The experience in the room may have some information about how long to wait before trying to remove the nipple or use a bullet puller.  

 

Hope this helps.

Thanks for the reply.

 

The problem with clearing on the firing line is time. For example, when I'm running a posse at WR or EOT, we are pretty much on a time limit per stage. If we shut down shooting to resolve an issue such as a C&B FTF, we can be shut down for a lengthy time. This can end up backing up not only our "Wave", but any other "Waves" behind us. It can also be very disruptive to the rest of the shooters on our posse that are loaded and looking to get to the firing line.

 

I think it's a mistake to clear on the firing line...gun should be grounded on the firing line and then brought to the ULT and the faulty chamber cleared...of course I would suggest that the shooter recap the chamber and and see if it can be cleared on the firing line before it's taken to the ULT for clearing.

 

See ya at HOW!!!!!

 

Phantom

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you got the right idea.  Most shut downs don’t take longer than recapping and firing the gun.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Howdy everyone!  I will try to answer all the questions asked and provide any further clarity to the situation.  Thanks for all your comments, some of which prompted me to re-think what happened.

 

On 6/26/2020 at 3:32 AM, Tequila Shooter said:

My first thought is were the nipples clean?  This happened on the ninth stage could it have been a build up in the nipple orifice that prevented a full spark from igniting the powder?  I would think that if was humidity that affected the powder then the rest of the powder that was in his flask(?) should be checked.  APP tends to clump up when it gets damp which should have made it noticeable in the powder measure.  My only other thought is that the powder wasn't compressed.  I would assume though that "Leadfoot" loaded that particular cylinder the same way as every other cylinder and that there was enough powder and compression to ignite fully.

This was day 2 and the 3rd stage of the day.  The guns had been cleaned the night before, so had been fired for two stages prior, and loaded same as the rest.

 

On 6/26/2020 at 8:07 AM, Assassin said:

Where's the bullet?

Bullet was not found and did not penetrate the boot, causing only a tear.

 

On 6/26/2020 at 9:04 AM, Oklahoma Dee said:

Well..maybe one question was which toe??? 

Right foot, big toe.

 

On 6/26/2020 at 9:30 AM, Captain Bill Burt said:

You stated that you 'moved to the unloading table and cleared all guns'.  How is it possible that you cleared all guns but had a hangfire?  I have zero experience with cap and ball, so perhaps I don't understand the mechanics of what was going on.  To me 'cleared all guns' means that all the guns were empty, no loaded ammo, neither powder, projectile nor cap.

At the end of the stage all caps were cleared and guns checked as unloaded by UTO.  After this I notified the PM I was attempting to discharge that particular cylinder.

 

On 6/26/2020 at 9:30 AM, Captain Bill Burt said:

You then recapped the second pistol 3 times, does this mean recapped for the next stage, or recapped and attempted to clear the unfired chamber, and eventually it ended up back in your holster, with a charge and a bullet in it.  My understanding is that capping is the last thing you do at the LT, so why would this happen at the ULT?  Again, not pointing fingers, cause I've had my own share of mistakes, but how do you end up with a gun in your holster that still had the ball and powder from the stage in it?  When a cap and ball shooter has a failure to ignite is the SOP to leave that powder and ball in place, then just recap that cylinder at the next stage, or is SOP to get all the powder and charge out and start fresh?

This is where I made a crucial error.  I recapped to clear the chamber, then set it down.  All guns were on the table at this time.  I decided to get my backup pistol to finish the match and I began to reholster the pistol to move the guns to my cart.  I neglected to clear the cap from the unfired cylinder!  While the cap may have been fired, it was still on the nipple, maybe contributing to the discharge. 

 

Phantom - There was no UTO present at the time, not an unusual occurrence when clearing a cylinder between stages.  My negligence entirely.

 

On 6/26/2020 at 1:37 PM, Springfield Slim SASS #24733 said:

When you re-capped it 3 times, did you check that there was actually a ball in the cylinder? Maybe what you actually had was a squib, thus the reduction of velocity when the powder finally went, due to the extra space in the barrel.

Bullet was chambered, no squib.

 

All that said,  I still believe the hangfire was initiated when I changed the attitude of the gun.  While it was 15-30 seconds after the cap had fired, I obviously did not wait long enough to deal with the hang. The low velocity of the bullet was probably due to a poor load (insufficient compression), fouled nipple reducing sufficient ignition, high humidity, or all of these.  I will of course keep all of this in mind when a FTF occurs again.  Luckily, I am still around to live and learn.

 

Thanks for all your comments and concern.

 

 

 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Well since Cat Brules will not elaborate on his comment, perhaps someone else would know what an UTO would have been able to do in this particular case that would have eliminated the realized end result.

 

Always willing to learn things ya know.

 

Phantom

Absolutely nothing. 

 

Very, and I mean VERY few UTO's know anything, including clearing, about capguns and how they work much less have ever dealt with a hangfire. 

 

As an aside, many TO's don't know that capguns can be re- capped on the line after a cap only fire.  They will instinctively call a squib as if a cartridge firearm.  We Frontiersman are on our own sometimes. :ph34r::lol:

 

In this case, after the second cap only discharge, I might have run a nipple pick through the nipple before trying it again.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

Absolutely nothing. 

 

Very, and I mean VERY few UTO's know anything, including clearing, about capguns and how they work much less have ever dealt with a hangfire. 

 

As an aside, many TO's don't know that capguns can be re- capped on the line after a cap only fire.  They will instinctively call a squib as if a cartridge firearm.  We Frontiersman are on our own sometimes. :ph34r::lol:

 

In this case, after the second cap only discharge, I might have run a nipple pick through the nipple before trying it again.

And that would be perfectly fine...disassembly of the revolver to clear on the line might be a little too much ;)

 

Funny we haven't heard from good ol' Cat Brules...<_<

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/26/2020 at 7:17 AM, Lucky R. K. said:

My thoughts exactly Mr. Phantom.  I would also like to know what Mr. Brules could have done to prevent this accident.

 

Lucky


I don’t think you’ve tied your wagon to a star there, Lucky.  

Be careful picking your heroes, Lucky..

Do your own thinking, even for simple things like this.....here, I’ll help you even!  
-  Can you say:  Nipple pick?

-  Can you say:  Tiny size, (2 or 3 ounce) “travel size” spray can of wd-40?

-  Can you say:  Small, insulin injection syringe (for water).

-  Can you say:  Remove the nipple.....last.
-  Can you say:  “backup” revolver?  (percussion or cartridge)
THINK, dammit!

 

This topic touches on inherent safety issues in CAS/SASS.  The fix for this almost lethal incident is simple, and does not include (dangerously) removing the nipple as the first step.  It always amazes me that few if any people have been killed in SASS/CAS, with the unsafe things I’ve seen.

 

Yeah, make fun of it, fool.  Yes, absolutely!   Of course a good Unloading Table Officer could/would have prevented this incident.  But, guess what?  Typically, there aren’t any good ULT’s....they aren’t tolerated.  And, No One (especially the no-nothing hotshots) pays attention to, or respects, or follows the directions/orders of the ULT officer anyway.  Awarding a few MDQ’s without Posse Leader-buddy interference would fix that problem immediately!  
 

In this case, “grounding“ the shooter’s weapon in place, without shooter interference, and pending proper inactivation, then clearing the FTF chamber,

would have prevented this seriously unfunny incident.  
 

Look at it this way:  Death actually came for Artie (or one of his fellow posse-mates) that day, but Death got distracted and was nearby, eating a hot dog, instead.

——————————-

PALEWOLF - maybe(?) a brief shooter’s handbook update might be in order.  However, developing a protocol like this might bring SASS its own set of problems.

 

Cat Brules
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Artie Fly, SASS #25397 said:

 

 

Right foot, big toe.

 

Thanks for all your comments and concern.

 

 

 

Ohhhh....Whew...If ya can't put the right foot forward, at the right time, my goodness, you might be in a pickle!  :lol:

 

So glad it was a somewhat easy lesson...and thank you for all the years that you and that lovely lady have brought class , humor, Life pictures, and our "One of a Kind"  tapestry, which is the best......to this favored game we play.  May there be many more!

 

Cheers,

 

OkD

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
49 minutes ago, Cat Brules said:

Do your own thinking, even for simple things like this.....here, I’ll help you even!  
-  Can you say:  Nipple pick?

-  Can you say:  Tiny size, (2 or 3 ounce) “travel size” spray can of wd-40?

-  Can you say:  Small, insulin injection syringe (for water).

-  Can you say:  Remove the nipple.....last.
-  Can you say:  “backup” revolver?  (percussion or cartridge)
THINK, dammit!

 

What UTO is going to have all this stuff sitting on their cart if they don't shoot frontiersmen? Even if I did have it on my cart, and I was the UTO, what authority do I have to force the shooter use it? Especially if all that is required is to take the cap off the cone...

 

49 minutes ago, Cat Brules said:

In this case, “grounding“ the shooter’s weapon in place, without shooter interference, and pending proper inactivation, then clearing the FTF chamber,

would have prevented this seriously unfunny incident.  

 

While I may agree that forcing frontiersmen to show all chambers clear of unfired rounds to the UTO before leaving may be a reasonable course of action, the fact is, the rules don't require it right now.

 

This is one of those areas where I always scratched my head thinking about it because it didn't make sense to me, other than was the rule.

 

I'm also amazed to watch somebody smoke their cigar while charging their cylinders, but that's another topic for another day...

 

Edited by Branchwater Jack SASS #88854
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

What UTO is going to have all this stuff sitting on their cart if they don't shoot frontiersmen? Even if I did have it on my cart, and I was the UTO, what authority do I have to force the shooter use it? Especially if all that is required is to take the cap off the cone...

 

 

While I may agree that forcing frontiersmen to show all chambers clear of unfired rounds to the UTO before leaving may be a reasonable course of action, the fact is, the rules don't require it right now.

 

This is one of those areas where I always scratched my head thinking about it because it didn't make sense to me, other than was the rule.

 

FTF or cap only discharges on capguns is quite common where hangfires are exceedingly rare.  I've seen only one in my 24 years in SASS and one chain fire.

 

The remedy for 99.9% of Frontiersman FTF is to re-cap, once given permission by the TO if off the firing line, and fire it downrange. 

 

The UTO is only required to check for caps on nipples.  Trying to show unloaded cylinders is a whole new safety issue.

 

Generally speaking, the Frontiersman will let the UTO know he/she has an unfired chamber and will go about their choices of clearing it once the other guns are clear.  

Edited by Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Shooter's Handbook has a list of Match Disqualification Penalties on page 22, which includes

  • -  Any discharge at the loading or unloading areas.

It doesn't say "accidental" discharge, it says any discharge.  I checked this with PWB a few years ago, and he told me that if I had completed a stage and taken my guns to the unloading table with one of my percussion revolver chambers still charged, I could leave it charged and try to shoot it out during the course of fire on the next stage.  But if I wanted to recap that troublesome chamber that did not fire before the next stage, I would get an MDQ if I shot it out at the unloading table, in accordance with the above rule.  He also told me that the Timer Operator did not have the authority to waive the rule and allow me to shoot the chamber clear from the unloading table.  To shoot out the chamber, I would have to get the TO's permission to return to the stage, cap it under the TO's supervision, and shoot it there.

 

So maybe it's time for an update from PWB.  Has this changed?  If not, we should not be encouraging shooting out a troublesome chamber at the unloading table.  The shooter will earn a Match Disqualification under the present rules.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, J-BAR #18287 said:

So maybe it's time for an update from PWB.  Has this changed?  If not, we should not be encouraging shooting out a troublesome chamber at the unloading table.  The shooter will earn a Match Disqualification under the present rules.

 

It hasn't changed. They should not shoot it out at the ULT, but on the stage under the direction of the CRO/TO

 

SHB pg 14

  Quote

Percussion revolvers must only be capped at the loading table or while on the course of fire. The cap over a nipple must never be seated using the percussion revolver’s own hammer. The Chief Range Officer/Timer Operator (CRO/TO) shall require any misfires to be cleared on the firing line by either recapping and firing that chamber, or by uncapping the misfired chamber.

 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Artie Fly, SASS #25397 said:

Howdy everyone!  I will try to answer all the questions asked and provide any further clarity to the situation.  Thanks for all your comments, some of which prompted me to re-think what happened.

 

This was day 2 and the 3rd stage of the day.  The guns had been cleaned the night before, so had been fired for two stages prior, and loaded same as the rest.

 

Bullet was not found and did not penetrate the boot, causing only a tear.

 

Right foot, big toe.

 

At the end of the stage all caps were cleared and guns checked as unloaded by UTO.  After this I notified the PM I was attempting to discharge that particular cylinder.

 

This is where I made a crucial error.  I recapped to clear the chamber, then set it down.  All guns were on the table at this time.  I decided to get my backup pistol to finish the match and I began to reholster the pistol to move the guns to my cart.  I neglected to clear the cap from the unfired cylinder!  While the cap may have been fired, it was still on the nipple, maybe contributing to the discharge. 

 

Phantom - There was no UTO present at the time, not an unusual occurrence when clearing a cylinder between stages.  My negligence entirely.

 

Bullet was chambered, no squib.

 

All that said,  I still believe the hangfire was initiated when I changed the attitude of the gun.  While it was 15-30 seconds after the cap had fired, I obviously did not wait long enough to deal with the hang. The low velocity of the bullet was probably due to a poor load (insufficient compression), fouled nipple reducing sufficient ignition, high humidity, or all of these.  I will of course keep all of this in mind when a FTF occurs again.  Luckily, I am still around to live and learn.

 

Thanks for all your comments and concern.

 

 

 

Thanks for your willingness to share Artie. It’s a delicate subject and many would be unwilling to discuss it on the Wire. Your courage and openness may save someone’s life somewhere down the line.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Cat Brules said:


I don’t think you’ve tied your wagon to a star there, Lucky.  

Be careful picking your heroes, Lucky..

Do your own thinking, even for simple things like this.....here, I’ll help you even!  
-  Can you say:  Nipple pick?

-  Can you say:  Tiny size, (2 or 3 ounce) “travel size” spray can of wd-40?

-  Can you say:  Small, insulin injection syringe (for water).

-  Can you say:  Remove the nipple.....last.
-  Can you say:  “backup” revolver?  (percussion or cartridge)
THINK, dammit!

 

This topic touches on inherent safety issues in CAS/SASS.  The fix for this almost lethal incident is simple, and does not include (dangerously) removing the nipple as the first step.  It always amazes me that few if any people have been killed in SASS/CAS, with the unsafe things I’ve seen.

 

Yeah, make fun of it, fool.  Yes, absolutely!   Of course a good Unloading Table Officer could/would have prevented this incident.  But, guess what?  Typically, there aren’t any good ULT’s....they aren’t tolerated.  And, No One (especially the no-nothing hotshots) pays attention to, or respects, or follows the directions/orders of the ULT officer anyway.  Awarding a few MDQ’s without Posse Leader-buddy interference would fix that problem immediately!  
 

In this case, “grounding“ the shooter’s weapon in place, without shooter interference, and pending proper inactivation, then clearing the FTF chamber,

would have prevented this seriously unfunny incident.  
 

Look at it this way:  Death actually came for Artie (or one of his fellow posse-mates) that day, but Death got distracted and was nearby, eating a hot dog, instead.

——————————-

PALEWOLF - maybe(?) a brief shooter’s handbook update might be in order.  However, developing a protocol like this might bring SASS its own set of problems.

 

Cat Brules
 

What a bunch of bizarre gibberish...attacking your words, not you...just for those sensitive Moderators out there.

 

The issue brought up by you had to do with the ULT officer. Being that you are obviously a seasoned and top-notch ULT officer, what would you have done???

 

PS: Where exactly do you shoot?

 

Phantom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Cat Brules said:


I don’t think you’ve tied your wagon to a star there, Lucky.  

Be careful picking your heroes, Lucky..

Do your own thinking, even for simple things like this.....here, I’ll help you even!  
-  Can you say:  Nipple pick?

-  Can you say:  Tiny size, (2 or 3 ounce) “travel size” spray can of wd-40?

-  Can you say:  Small, insulin injection syringe (for water).

-  Can you say:  Remove the nipple.....last.
-  Can you say:  “backup” revolver?  (percussion or cartridge)
THINK, dammit!

 

This topic touches on inherent safety issues in CAS/SASS.  The fix for this almost lethal incident is simple, and does not include (dangerously) removing the nipple as the first step.  It always amazes me that few if any people have been killed in SASS/CAS, with the unsafe things I’ve seen.

 

Yeah, make fun of it, fool.  Yes, absolutely!   Of course a good Unloading Table Officer could/would have prevented this incident.  But, guess what?  Typically, there aren’t any good ULT’s....they aren’t tolerated.  And, No One (especially the no-nothing hotshots) pays attention to, or respects, or follows the directions/orders of the ULT officer anyway.  Awarding a few MDQ’s without Posse Leader-buddy interference would fix that problem immediately!  
 

In this case, “grounding“ the shooter’s weapon in place, without shooter interference, and pending proper inactivation, then clearing the FTF chamber,

would have prevented this seriously unfunny incident.  
 

Look at it this way:  Death actually came for Artie (or one of his fellow posse-mates) that day, but Death got distracted and was nearby, eating a hot dog, instead.

——————————-

PALEWOLF - maybe(?) a brief shooter’s handbook update might be in order.  However, developing a protocol like this might bring SASS its own set of problems.

 

Cat Brules
 

Artie said the discharge happened after he rotated the pistol to a vertical position (pointed at his toe) as far as I can tell all SASS safety rules were followed up to that point. If you’ve seen all these unsafe acts why haven’t YOU done/said something about it previously?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, J-BAR #18287 said:

The Shooter's Handbook has a list of Match Disqualification Penalties on page 22, which includes

  • -  Any discharge at the loading or unloading areas.

It doesn't say "accidental" discharge, it says any discharge.  I checked this with PWB a few years ago, and he told me that if I had completed a stage and taken my guns to the unloading table with one of my percussion revolver chambers still charged, I could leave it charged and try to shoot it out during the course of fire on the next stage.  But if I wanted to recap that troublesome chamber that did not fire before the next stage, I would get an MDQ if I shot it out at the unloading table, in accordance with the above rule.  He also told me that the Timer Operator did not have the authority to waive the rule and allow me to shoot the chamber clear from the unloading table.  To shoot out the chamber, I would have to get the TO's permission to return to the stage, cap it under the TO's supervision, and shoot it there.

 

So maybe it's time for an update from PWB.  Has this changed?  If not, we should not be encouraging shooting out a troublesome chamber at the unloading table.  The shooter will earn a Match Disqualification under the present rules.

Nowhere did I recommend to shoot it out at the unloading table.  That would be assinine.  I did say DOWNRANGE.  Re-cap on the line during the shooting string for another attempt or with the TO's permission, return to the firing line re-cap, and fire it DOWNRANGE once your other guns are clear.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As Branchwater previously quoted: 


SHB Page 14 "The Chief Range Officer/Timer Operator (CRO/TO) shall require any misfires to be cleared on the firing line by either recapping and firing that chamber, or by uncapping the misfired chamber."

 

I think the "or by uncapping the misfired chamber." should be removed as an option and percussion revolvers that have misfired not be considered clear until the ball is verified as no longer in the gun.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

Nowhere did I recommend to shoot it out at the unloading table.  That would be assinine. 

 

No need to get upset.  I did not quote you or anyone else when I made the post.  I wasn't even thinking of you or anyone else.   I bet I am not the only person in this thread that has seen a percussion revolver fired at the unloading table.  For the sake of the newer Frontiersmen, I simply wanted to make sure they did not ever make that mistake and that they know the procedure for clearing a  troublesome chamber is covered in the rules, and that the Timer Operator can't waive the rule.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

As Branchwater previously quoted: 


SHB Page 14 "The Chief Range Officer/Timer Operator (CRO/TO) shall require any misfires to be cleared on the firing line by either recapping and firing that chamber, or by uncapping the misfired chamber."

 

I think the "or by uncapping the misfired chamber." should be removed as an option and percussion revolvers that have misfired not be considered clear until the ball is verified as no longer in the gun.

 

Artie Fly I mean no insult to you. A similar incident could have happened to any one of us with any firearm whether we want to admit it or not.

 

We DO NOT need to change the rules. By his own admission the shooter failed to remove the cap BEFORE reholstering the gun. Would have doing so kept this from happening? We will never know.

Hangfires are extremely rare and one that took this long to occur is on par with the odds of winning the lottery. 

 

BTW a hangfire in a cartridge gun is no less dangerous than one in a muzzleloader as long as the cartridge is still in chamber. 

 

PLEASE PLEASE lets all stop armchair quarterbacking this. We were not there and even if we were at the match everything would still be second hand information as the only individual to actually witness the event was Artie Fly himself.

 

I am glad that Artie Fly was not more seriously injured.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To quote a famous SASS personality

 

LEAVE FRONTIERSMAN ALONE!

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

As Branchwater previously quoted:

 

I think the "or by uncapping the misfired chamber." should be removed as an option and percussion revolvers that have misfired not be considered clear until the ball is verified as no longer in the gun.

If we change the rule to what you think do you still let us off the line charge our cylinders, holster and walk around with balls in the chamber?

 

 

Fordyce

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Fordyce Beals said:

If we change the rule to what you think do you still let us off the line charge our cylinders, holster and walk around with balls in the chamber?

 

 

Fordyce

Of course!  That's not a safety risk.  My concern, which could be unfounded, arises from considering a chamber that has been the subject of a misfire being considered 'made safe' because it has been decapped. It seems to me that if a percussion revolver has had a misfire it shouldn't be considered cleared and made safe until all the chambers are empty.  Ground it, continue with the course of fire, then recap and fire on the line, or failing that take it too the ULT and get that cylinder empty there. If they're charged after that I don't see how that's a problem.

Edited by Captain Bill Burt

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Fordyce Beals said:

If we change the rule to what you think do you still let us off the line charge our cylinders, holster and walk around with balls in the chamber?

 

 

Fordyce

State and Federal law considers a C&B firearm empty until it is capped, just sayin'.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

State and Federal law considers a C&B firearm empty until it is capped, just sayin'.

When the people who wrote that law are the ones potentially getting shot then I'll care what they say, maybe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

When the people who wrote that law are the ones potentially getting shot then I'll care what they say, maybe.

I am referencing the walking around after reloading a C&B firearm, not the misfire issue.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

I am referencing the walking around after reloading a C&B firearm, not the misfire issue.

My mistake!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Artie: Glad to hear a full account as I was on the other end of the range and getting 3d and 4th hand reports. So glad you were just bruised. I thought we were going to have to call you "Four Toes." So happy to hear that now it is just Leadfoot Artie. It will be great to see you at Plum Creek on the 4th!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/28/2020 at 3:22 PM, Captain Bill Burt said:
On 6/28/2020 at 12:01 PM, Artie Fly, SASS #25397 said:

 

Thanks for your willingness to share Artie

No problem.  I've made my share of mistakes and others can learn from them.

 

Dragon Hill Dave - See you on the 4th!  I'll try not to shoot the other foot.

  • Like 2
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎6‎/‎28‎/‎2020 at 2:50 PM, Cat Brules said:


I don’t think you’ve tied your wagon to a star there, Lucky.  

Be careful picking your heroes, Lucky..

Do your own thinking, even for simple things like this.....here, I’ll help you even!  
-  Can you say:  Nipple pick?

-  Can you say:  Tiny size, (2 or 3 ounce) “travel size” spray can of wd-40?

-  Can you say:  Small, insulin injection syringe (for water).

-  Can you say:  Remove the nipple.....last.
-  Can you say:  “backup” revolver?  (percussion or cartridge)
THINK, dammit!

It appears that you value my opinion as much as I value yours.

Lucky grin_zpsebe960c5.png

  • Like 1
  • Haha 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/28/2020 at 2:50 PM, Cat Brules said:


I don’t think you’ve tied your wagon to a star there, Lucky.  

Be careful picking your heroes, Lucky..

Do your own thinking, even for simple things like this.....here, I’ll help you even!  
-  Can you say:  Nipple pick?

-  Can you say:  Tiny size, (2 or 3 ounce) “travel size” spray can of wd-40?

-  Can you say:  Small, insulin injection syringe (for water).

-  Can you say:  Remove the nipple.....last.
-  Can you say:  “backup” revolver?  (percussion or cartridge)
THINK, dammit!

 

This topic touches on inherent safety issues in CAS/SASS.  The fix for this almost lethal incident is simple, and does not include (dangerously) removing the nipple as the first step.  It always amazes me that few if any people have been killed in SASS/CAS, with the unsafe things I’ve seen.

 

Yeah, make fun of it, fool.  Yes, absolutely!   Of course a good Unloading Table Officer could/would have prevented this incident.  But, guess what?  Typically, there aren’t any good ULT’s....they aren’t tolerated.  And, No One (especially the no-nothing hotshots) pays attention to, or respects, or follows the directions/orders of the ULT officer anyway.  Awarding a few MDQ’s without Posse Leader-buddy interference would fix that problem immediately!  
 

In this case, “grounding“ the shooter’s weapon in place, without shooter interference, and pending proper inactivation, then clearing the FTF chamber,

would have prevented this seriously unfunny incident.  
 

Look at it this way:  Death actually came for Artie (or one of his fellow posse-mates) that day, but Death got distracted and was nearby, eating a hot dog, instead.

——————————-

PALEWOLF - maybe(?) a brief shooter’s handbook update might be in order.  However, developing a protocol like this might bring SASS its own set of problems.

 

Cat Brules
 

So condescending. 

  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

So condescending. 

Unfortunately, we have a very small number of folks on the wire who have nothing better to do than spew useless garbage that has no basis in fact or personal experience.  

 

It only matters if you value their opinion.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

Unfortunately, we have a very small number of folks on the wire who have nothing better to do than spew useless garbage that has no basis in fact or personal experience.  

 

It only matters if you value their opinion.  

I do value your opinion and apologize for misinterpreting your earlier post.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I do value your opinion and apologize for misinterpreting your earlier post.

No worries, it's easy to do sometimes.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.