John Kloehr's Reloading Thread

[bgavin]

I was trained that smaller shot #8 has less chance of ricochet from close targets and hitting you in the face.

[John Kloehr]

I'm finding some CCI large pistol primers on-line (in strips). Need a quick schooling on primers for SASS. Brands, "hardness", preferences for any reason including if using in slicked guns. One lady I spoke with at the June match said Fiocchi primers would not work in her SKB. In that case, I think it was 209s in plastic hulls (commercial ammo).

 

Also not finding APP fffg, am finding some Triple Seven is in stock. Assume very different formulation, reading it is a hotter powder. Have not got to the point of recipes yet but will soon. The recipes I have seen call for APP. And yes, I will verify any load from independent sources. I trust this community, but will verify. And document the verification in this thread.

 

And the context is still hand loading some brass 12 GA MagTech shells for a SxS. Shot will be lead 7-1/2. Other details TBD.

[Tyrel Cody]

@John Kloehr 777 is indeed a HOT BP substitute. @Scarlettis an authorized APP dealer now.

Avoid Pyrodex like it's the China Flu.

 

Why not get the real thing?

 

Primers:

1. Federal, softest and preferred by a lot of us.(Best for slicked up guns)

2. Winchester: harder than Federal, probably the second most used brand.

3. CCI: pretty hard, ok if thats all you can find.

4. Seller & Bellot, between Winchester and CCI hardness,  pretty decent.

5. Magtech, unsure of hardness.

 

For shotgun I prefer Winchester primers, but will use about any brand 209 primers I can get.

[Tequila Shooter]

@John Kloehr Get in touch with Scarlett, she can set you up with everything from powder and primers to bullets.  If you've got a question ask her she knows her business and is a very very good shooter.

[Tyrel Cody]

Reach out to Slater as well. He's in Maryville(I think),  is a d@mn good gunsmith and might have some guns and/or a line on getting primers locally. Look up Slater's In House Guns for contact info.

[Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life]

8 hours ago, John Kloehr said:

Ordering shot.

 

I've seen posts ranging from size 6 to 9, 7-1/2 seems to come up a lot.

 

65# of 7-1/2 shot. Seemed like a lot of shot until I did a bit of rough math. Assuming a 1 oz load (eyeball for easy math, not a formula spec) and just over a box of shells per match, shooting every month, it is less than a three year supply. Still seems like a lot but it isn't.

 

When I saw how much was in a bag, it seemed like a lifetime supply. Since it is lead, the bag will also probably be surprisingly small.

Don’t forget makeup’s, live fire practice, tweaker shells while settling on what works for you and your gun, the occasional variance in what your press drops (+\- a few grains adds up), spillage probably other stuff. I use a one ounce load and expect to get about 395-400 rounds per 25# bag so 65# would make about 1035-1040 rounds. Sounds good until you factor in the every month 250 rounds of live practice, the annual that burns 50-60 plus a dozen runs on a side match etc etc

Welcome and all the best

  

Gateway Kid

[Tyrel Cody]

20 minutes ago, Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life said:

Don’t forget makeup’s, live fire practice, tweaker shells while settling on what works for you and your gun, the occasional variance in what your press drops (+\- a few grains adds up), spillage probably other stuff. I use a one ounce load and expect to get about 395-400 rounds per 25# bag so 65# would make about 1035-1040 rounds. Sounds good until you factor in the every month 250 rounds of live practice, the annual that burns 50-60 plus a dozen runs on a side match etc etc

Welcome and all the best

  

Gateway Kid

 

What is this "practice" thing of which you speak?

 

 

[bgavin]

I would love to "practice" but the logistics are formidable for me.
45 minute drive, each way plus gas.
Two people required at cowboy town, range fees for both.

I grew up with the desert across the street from my house, and the gravel pit half a mile away.
Shooting every day as a kid was as natural as anything.

[Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life]

1 hour ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

What is this "practice" thing of which you speak?

 

 

An obscure and nearly forgotten mindset developed by an ancient culture that believes repetitive motions translate into future success. For further guidance refer to their current high lord “Jedi Widder” and his current acolyte “Red Knee”

  

Regards 

 

   
 

Gateway Kid

[Tyrel Cody]

2 minutes ago, Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life said:

An obscure and nearly forgotten mindset developed by an ancient culture that believes repetitive motions translate into future success. For further guidance refer to their current high lord “Jedi Widder” and his current acolyte “Red Knee”

  

Regards 

 

   
 

Gateway Kid

 

Oh, that.

 

 

 

 

Wonder if Red Knee has figured out if creamy or crunchy is better yo lube with...

[John Kloehr]

5 hours ago, Tyrel Cody said:

@John Kloehr 777 is indeed a HOT BP substitute. @Scarlettis an authorized APP dealer now.

Avoid Pyrodex like it's the China Flu.

 

Why not get the real thing?

 

Primers:

1. Federal, softest and preferred by a lot of us.(Best for slicked up guns)

2. Winchester: harder than Federal, probably the second most used brand.

3. CCI: pretty hard, ok if thats all you can find.

4. Seller & Bellot, between Winchester and CCI hardness,  pretty decent.

5. Magtech, unsure of hardness.

 

For shotgun I prefer Winchester primers, but will use about any brand 209 primers I can get.

 

5 hours ago, Tequila Shooter said:

@John Kloehr Get in touch with Scarlett, she can set you up with everything from powder and primers to bullets.  If you've got a question ask her she knows her business and is a very very good shooter.

 

5 hours ago, Tyrel Cody said:

@John Kloehr 777 is indeed a HOT BP substitute. @Scarlettis an authorized APP dealer now.

Avoid Pyrodex like it's the China Flu.

 

Why not get the real thing?

 

Primers:

1. Federal, softest and preferred by a lot of us.(Best for slicked up guns)

2. Winchester: harder than Federal, probably the second most used brand.

3. CCI: pretty hard, ok if thats all you can find.

4. Seller & Bellot, between Winchester and CCI hardness,  pretty decent.

5. Magtech, unsure of hardness.

 

For shotgun I prefer Winchester primers, but will use about any brand 209 primers I can get.

PM sent to Scarlett. I can take a hint, probably had over a half dozen hints from all of you so far. 

[Tequila Shooter]

It's about time    

[John Kloehr]

5 hours ago, Tyrel Cody said:

Why not get the real thing?

Man, you and Lumpy... Real thing... SMH. They all go bang.

 

I found some reasons for going with APP but don't remember all of them now. I do recall a warning about HB in presses (static), Fouling and possible corrosion (but APP is closer to HB than to smokeless). Some other reasons I can't recall.. APP makes sense for a beginner. Well, smokeless probably makes even more sense.

 

But the covid-opocalyptic panic-demic could guide me to what is actually available. If that is only HB, then I can re-think.

[Tyrel Cody]

9 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

Man, you and Lumpy... Real thing... SMH. They all go bang.

 

I found some reasons for going with APP but don't remember all of them now. I do recall a warning about HB in presses (static), Fouling and possible corrosion (but APP is closer to HB than to smokeless). Some other reasons I can't recall.. APP makes sense for a beginner. Well, smokeless probably makes even more sense.

 

But the covid-opocalyptic panic-demic could guide me to what is actually available. If that is only HB, then I can re-think.

 

APP = Smoke = fun

 

Real BP = Smoke + Fire = FUN

 

APP smokes way too much for my taste.

 

Gotta clean them when you get home regardless of APP or BP.

 

Aluminum hopper solves the static concerns, but it's been shown that static can't set off BP any way.

 

I get it though, APP is a little easier to get your feet wet in the world of smoky shooting.

[John Kloehr]

21 minutes ago, Tyrel Cody said:

it's been shown that static can't set off BP any way.

In statistics, that is called survivor bias. I will agree that no one I know has told me they died from blowing up the HB in their press. Then there is the issue of clogging, especially in high humidity.

 

But agree a grounded setup, conductive materials, and humidity above 50% would make an explosion unlikely. (and on edit, weighing finished cartridges to make sure they have powder in them)

 

And for my initial project (the Magtech shells), I will be hand-dipping by volume anyway.

 

On a separate topic, my hardcopy of Breaking The Shot arrived today. Big thanks to a pard on this forum for reaching out and offering up a copy!

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

42 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

In statistics, that is called survivor bias. I will agree that no one I know has told me they died from blowing up the HB in their press. Then there is the issue of clogging, especially in high humidity.

 

But agree a grounded setup, conductive materials, and humidity above 50% would make an explosion unlikely. (and on edit, weighing finished cartridges to make sure they have powder in them)

 

And for my initial project (the Magtech shells), I will be hand-dipping by volume anyway.

 

On a separate topic, my hardcopy of Breaking The Shot arrived today. Big thanks to a pard on this forum for reaching out and offering up a copy!

Can you reference case where a static discharge has ignited BP?

[John Kloehr]

24 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Can you reference case where a static discharge has ignited BP?

Not exactly that, and in my opinion it would have to be dust finer than ffffg to ignite from "normal" household static. But I am not the expert. There are many fine dusts which can explode even if the chemical compound does not contain oxygen (which gunpowder does). There is plenty of oxygen in the air we breath to sustain burning of almost any fine reactive dust.

 

Have read reports of primers going off from static (also disputed in forums). Also reports clumping in loading presses due to both static (very dry air) and high humidity (from leaving powder in the hopper too long until it absorbs moisture from the air); these last two are not disputed.

 

And the press makers cautioning against loading HB in their presses is not disputed. Explosion or clumping concerns? Well, a squib due to no powder due clumping is not a good thing either.

 

I can deal with and control static, even a wipe with bounce sheets will knock it down a lot. A 10 to 100 megohm resistor from the equipment to a real earth ground will also bleed off charge without presenting any electrocution risk. That leaves humidity as a factor. That too can be dealt with in the winter by simmering a kettle of water, and in the summer by not pushing the air-conditioning too hard. I like the comfort of 50% humidity more than any particular temperature.

 

The tool makers say no to HB. Without knowing exactly why, I am cautious about going against the recommendation. But if the issues are static and humidity, those can be managed.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Hardwire the press to a dedicated GND rod.

I lived in the Mojave Desert for 28yrs. Static cling

affected BP and smokeless powder drop consistency.

Grounding the press fixed that.

OLG 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

41 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

Not exactly that, and in my opinion it would have to be dust finer than ffffg to ignite from "normal" household static. But I am not the expert. There are many fine dusts which can explode even if the chemical compound does not contain oxygen (which gunpowder does). There is plenty of oxygen in the air we breath to sustain burning of almost any fine reactive dust.

 

Have read reports of primers going off from static (also disputed in forums). Also reports clumping in loading presses due to both static (very dry air) and high humidity (from leaving powder in the hopper too long until it absorbs moisture from the air); these last two are not disputed.

 

And the press makers cautioning against loading HB in their presses is not disputed. Explosion or clumping concerns? Well, a squib due to no powder due clumping is not a good thing either.

 

I can deal with and control static, even a wipe with bounce sheets will knock it down a lot. A 10 to 100 megohm resistor from the equipment to a real earth ground will also bleed off charge without presenting any electrocution risk. That leaves humidity as a factor. That too can be dealt with in the winter by simmering a kettle of water, and in the summer by not pushing the air-conditioning too hard. I like the comfort of 50% humidity more than any particular temperature.

 

The tool makers say no to HB. Without knowing exactly why, I am cautious about going against the recommendation. But if the issues are static and humidity, those can be managed.

So the answer is no.

 

Love your lack of economy of words.

 

Phantom

[John Kloehr]

On 6/26/2020 at 9:31 PM, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

So the answer is no.

 

Love your lack of economy of words.

 

Phantom

In the course of wandering around the Internet, found someone who is (or was) trying to make an electrically-fired muzzle loader. He found it difficult to electrically ignite either BP or smokeless powder:

 

https://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/sparks/sparks.html

 

And part 2:

 

https://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/electric_ignition/eignition.html

 

From a quick read, it seems this experimenter was able to ignite powder with a controlled spark, but the powder did not go off due to electricity as such, but by heating the powder to the ignition point. Interesting read! So simple static charges are not likely to ignite powder as there is not enough energy in the spark.

 

Primer ignition (not the subject of the above links) might be easier to produce. So why do press manufacturers not want there products used with BP? I'll keep my eyes open for an answer. But I will agree ignition from static electricity is not a primary reason.

[John Kloehr]

Ordered the Hornady scale and caliper, and a 1" Mitutoyo block.

[John Kloehr]

I chose these from other threads on this forum, will also look at other recommendations.

 

I know there is a lot of overlap in the two Lyman books, but figured one would be better for just SASS and the other more for non-SASS reloading.

 

Ordered:

 

• LEE PRECISION Modern Reloading 2nd Edition New Format by Richard Lee

• Hornady 99240 Handbook 10th Edition, Not Applicable

• Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 4Th Edition, Multiple, Model:9817004

• Lyman 50th Edition Reloading Handbook Hardcover

[John Kloehr]

Another find here in the SASS archives, Captain Baylor's Reloading page has a lot of good info:

 

http://www.curtrich.com/bpsubsdummies.html

 

 

[John Kloehr]

Found and ordered Federal large pistol primers.

 

3.4 cents each delivered for 5,000 quantity.

2.8 cents each delivered for 10,000 quantity.

I ordered 2 cases of 5,000.

 

Left one case in the seller's inventory, search on gun broker if you want to snag that last case.

 

Now that primers and powder are lined up, I can relax and focus on bullets, wads, overshot cards, and a few more tools.

[Tequila Shooter]

1 hour ago, John Kloehr said:

 

 

Now that primers and powder are lined up, I can relax and focus on bullets, wads, overshot cards, and a few more tools.

 

For wads, nitro cards, overshot cards try BPI there are others as you've probably know.  For sealing I use Duco cement, dries quick and leaves no residue.  I seal my hulls because of the high humidity here.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

12 hours ago, John Kloehr said:

Ordered the Hornady scale and caliper, and a 1" Mitutoyo block.

 

You calibrate dial calipers  by closing the clean jaws, and setting the dial on '0'. You then open and close again to confirm a '0' reading.

No need for a 1" block.

OLG 

[Kulshan 20262]

1 hour ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

 

You calibrate dial calipers  by closing the clean jaws, and setting the dial on '0'. You then open and close again to confirm a '0' reading.

No need for a 1" block.

OLG 

You can clean the jaws by closing them on a clean piece of paper and hold a slight tension as you withdraw the paper, then set zero.

[John Kloehr]

6 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

 

You calibrate dial calipers  by closing the clean jaws, and setting the dial on '0'. You then open and close again to confirm a '0' reading.

No need for a 1" block.

OLG 

Short response:

 

I agree.

 

Long response:

 

I've had the encoders start failing. Then they read "short" due to missed ticks.

 

Agree several openings and closings will show this problem, as there would be an inconsistent zero. So agree the block really is optional. Another failure, usually instantly visible, is if the caliper is dropped, or something heavy is dropped on it. Then it may still zero fine but a bent beam will will introduce a measurement error. This block will not pick up a bend beyond the first inch, but was comparatively inexpensive. Having two cheaper calipers would have cost less and was an option. For completeness, I "should" also have another block longer than any of the rounds I plan to reload.

 

But there is a far less expensive option. Take one commercial round for each caliber and document it compared to the SAAMI specification. Save it as a working standard. So, again agree, the block is not required, it is simply convenient.

 

I'll also get a standard weight for the scale though any known item could serve that purpose, even something like a large nut if the scale is "trusted" the first time. The nut (and any documented rounds) will never change weight so any change over time or sudden inconsistency must be the scale. But for convenience, some known unit weight provides a quick gut check.

 

Yes, unit standards are optional, but having some available standard is important. In this case, an in-spec commercial round is an inexpensive option.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Yes ...1/10000" will really ruin a reloaders day.

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

1 hour ago, John Kloehr said:

Short response:

 

I agree.

 

Long response:

 

I've had the encoders start failing. Then they read "short" due to missed ticks.

 

Agree several openings and closings will show this problem, as there would be an inconsistent zero. So agree the block really is optional. Another failure, usually instantly visible, is if the caliper is dropped, or something heavy is dropped on it. Then it may still zero fine but a bent beam will will introduce a measurement error. This block will not pick up a bend beyond the first inch, but was comparatively inexpensive. Having two cheaper calipers would have cost less and was an option. For completeness, I "should" also have another block longer than any of the rounds I plan to reload.

 

But there is a far less expensive option. Take one commercial round for each caliber and document it compared to the SAAMI specification. Save it as a working standard. So, again agree, the block is not required, it is simply convenient.

 

I'll also get a standard weight for the scale though any known item could serve that purpose, even something like a large nut if the scale is "trusted" the first time. The nut (and any documented rounds) will never change weight so any change over time or sudden inconsistency must be the scale. But for convenience, some known unit weight provides a quick gut check.

 

Yes, unit standards are optional, but having some available standard is important. In this case, an in-spec commercial round is an inexpensive option.

 

 Stick with a mechanical .01 dial caliber. 

I've seen to many issues with the electronic type to ever trust'em.

OLG 

 

[bgavin]

I've spent my entire career, some 46 years now, in the digital world.
For this reason, I do not, and will not, own a smart phone.

Digital is finicky, fragile and planned obsolescence.

I had to install a digital Firestick on my digital Samsung TV because the TV was no longer compatible with the digital signal from Netflix.
My digital Firestick gets confused, and has to be power-reset to clear its confusion.
The day is coming when IP4 digital addresses are no longer supported on IP6 digital networks.

IoT (internet of things) will bring new digital headaches.
Refrigerator v1.0 is no longer compatible with House v2.1, after Service Pack #3 is applied to House.
This means a hotfix for House v2.1 is needed, or you will be forced to upgrade Refrigerator to a new one, such as v2.0 which is compatible with House v2.1.
The hotfix will probably break the new Laundry v3.1.
The list goes on, and on, and on, and on...

This baloney is in the cars, the houses, the computers, the phones, the appliances, and now the tools.
A digital caliper still depends upon "something" reading its position and translating that to battery powered circuity to display on a digital LCD screen.
Like all things digital, it is Made in China, and subject to being CCS (cheap chinese.... stuff).
I have no need to tolerate a missing LCD bar, short life battery, or a broken or missing battery cover.

 

Digital powder scales have picked up enough anecdotal scuttlebutt for inaccuracy, that I want nothing to do with them.
Certainly not when a digital error could incur an excess charge of a potent, low VMD powder such as No.5 or H110.

First and foremost, all these companies are marketing companies.
Apple thrives on convincing the fan boys to pay outrageous sums for the "newest, bestest, greatest" digital technology.
Every new release of digital technology brings a new set of bugs.

Next year, I can no longer use my Windows 7 virtual machine to do my income taxes.
Turbo Tax announced they will refuse to run on Win7, even though the underlying kernel is nearly identical to Windows 10.

My Starrett mechanical micrometers are older than I am.
I figure my new dial Starrett 120A-6 will outlive me as well.
They all work perfectly, and are 100% accurate.
When used with adult supervision (read: do not drop) they will last a very long time.

My dad's Keuffel and Esser ivory slide rule works as good today as it did for him at Annapolis in 1939.
Even after going down on the California at Pearl Harbor in 1941.

Digital for my guns?
No thanks
 

[John Boy]

Double tap

[John Boy]

 

Quote

 

My goals for SASS:

• I want to make smoke (Black Powder Substitute, not Holy black)
• .44 Russian for 2 Uberti 1873 Cattleman Revolvers (built for .44 Special)
• .44-40 for a Winchester (Miroku) 1873 24" Rifle
• 12 GA Stoeger SxS (not yet purchased) running Brass Hulls (inbound)
• '97 Pump Shotgun (have lots of AA hulls)

 

Also plan to reload smokeless:

• .38 Special
• .357 Magnum
• .45 ACP
• .223
• 12 GA Shotgun

 

• John, I believe it is time for you to buy some reference manuals and become familiar with various reloading reference sites:
• http://www.bpcr.net/site_docs-results_schedules/documents/bp_cartridge_reloading_dick_trenk.htm
• Buy a copy of the 3rd and 4th editions of the Lyman Handloader manuals
• Read the various reloads for black powder & smokeless powders you plan to shoot: bullet weight & corresponding powder charges plus how to reload
• **
• Reloading 101 ... https://www.gunsandammo.com/editorial/reloading-101/248275
• Another Reloading 101 ... https://ultimatereloader.com/reloading-101-2/

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Good lord... These people with manifestos ... Must make living difficult.

 

[John Kloehr]

Excerpt from Scarlett's eMail to me, including here to keep stuff in one place:

 

Quote

Have bullets coming your way. The red hi-Telor coated ones are .427 for your 44-40 and the lubed lead ones (.428) are for your 44 Russian. My customer who shoots these same caliber uses bullets .427, .428 and .430 in both his 44-40 and 44 Russian (his rifle). Since you are new to reloading the red and silver bullets will help you to identify rifle/pistol EASILY! Also, the coated and lubed will perform beautifully with the APP and will need nothing in the way of additional lube. The bullets are hard cast lead and you should have no problems with lead fouling - some folks say the coating prevents it - it might with softer lead...but at our velocities it’s not an issue.