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Winchester 1897 break-down model question?


Slimy

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Is the 97 breakdown model OK for building into a purpose built SASS competition gun? Do the breakdown models holdup as well as the solid frame guns? Thanks for any advise!

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The main thing to be concerned about with any of the M97's is the chambering.  Even those labeled for "2-3/4 inch" shotshells have chambers that are too short for modern star-crimped shells.  The original 2-3/4" paper shells used a roll crimp, which didn't extend as far into the forcing cone as modern star-crimped plastic shells.  When the star opens out, the plastic shot collars get pinched between the shot and the chamber wall, raising pressures.  This can be easily fixed by having the chamber reamed out and a long-taper forcing cone reamed.   Earlier M97's had chambers intended for 2-5/8" shells. IIRC, these were in the C-model and earlier.  Again, we are talking about original Winchester guns, NOT the Chinese models.

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2 hours ago, Trailrider #896 said:

The main thing to be concerned about with any of the M97's is the chambering.  Even those labeled for "2-3/4 inch" shotshells have chambers that are too short for modern star-crimped shells.  The original 2-3/4" paper shells used a roll crimp, which didn't extend as far into the forcing cone as modern star-crimped plastic shells.  When the star opens out, the plastic shot collars get pinched between the shot and the chamber wall, raising pressures.  This can be easily fixed by having the chamber reamed out and a long-taper forcing cone reamed.   Earlier M97's had chambers intended for 2-5/8" shells. IIRC, these were in the C-model and earlier.  Again, we are talking about original Winchester guns, NOT the Chinese models.

I have a last year of production (1957) 97 that I'm considering to build. Good info on checking the forcing cone! Hopefully I won't be struck down by lighting for thinking of cutting the pristine 30" barrel... Thanks!

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May you be struck and struck hard!

 

If you want a short barrel 97, there are plenty of them out there.  Please don't cut the barrel on your 30" one.   For one thing, why do people think that barrels have to be short for CAS use?   My primary main match shotgun is a 30" full choke 97.  My secondary Main Match is a 30" Parker F/F.  I started with a 20"  97 and an 18" Parker, all with no chokes.   I wanted to have a long barrel 97, just to have one, and maybe use for Cowboy Trap on occasion.  Well, when I found my long barrel 97, I tried it once, just to try it, and lo and behold, it became my favorite gun.  For one thing I hardly ever miss with it, something I could not say about the shorter barrel guns.   And, while the 30" Parker is a sweet shooter, the short one kicks like a mule.   Long barrels have a lot going for them, but the myth that you have to have a short barrel is so ingrained that far too many people never even bother to try it.   If they did, they might discover that they like it.

 

Seriously, you want a short barrel, get a Chinese copy, or an original that's already got a short barrel.  They do exist.  I see them pretty much all the time for affordable prices.   But for every long barrel real Winchester that's cut, there's no going back.   Yes, I know these guns are not "collectible" but really, I am sure there's someone out there who'd love to have it as is.  Might even be willing to trade a short one to you for it.   But try it long at least once.  You may be surprised.

 

By the way, my third favorite main match shotgun?   A Winchester 87 with a 30" full choke barrel.   I really like the 87, but there is a reason why I have not migrated to it.  Using the original requires black powder, and for me at least, while that is fun occasionally, I prefer to shoot smokeless.   All of the reproductions on the market have 20" barrels, or if they have a 28",  screw in chokes.   

 

No thanks.

 

Not that it's SASS Legal, but I also have a 93/97 that I'd like to replace the factory short barrel with a long one on.  Just like my real 93...

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I agree with H. K. Uriah ...but only regarding the cutting of the barrel if the gun is in pristine condition. 

 

Regarding the long barrel being okay for SASS/CAS...only if you don't want to be competitive...and don't mind your barrel hitting window frames, door frames...misc props.

 

Don't get a Chinese model for the sake of getting a short barrel. There are a S@*t load of beat up 97's that you can Cowboy Up for your SASS/CAS needs.

 

Phantom

 

 

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Buy a short barrel and have it fitted to your gun. I have a 97 for Wild Bunch thast has the original 30 in barrel with a S/N that matches plus a short barrel that has been fitted to the receiver for when I want a short barrel.

 

Fitting a second barrel isn't all that hard.

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35 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

Buy a short barrel and have it fitted to your gun. I have a 97 for Wild Bunch thast has the original 30 in barrel with a S/N that matches plus a short barrel that has been fitted to the receiver for when I want a short barrel.

 

Fitting a second barrel isn't all that hard.

Just as easy to get a complete gun... And besides, if you end up putting that original barrel back on the receiver it'll look like a mismatch... Defeating the whole purpose of setting aside the original barrel.

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Once, just to see if it was possible, I swapped the barrels on my two 97s.  They fit like a glove.  

That being said, as cool as it would be to have two barrels for my 97, I don't recall ever seeing a barrel assembly for sale anyplace.  Finding a second gun would be far easier, I think.   

Does the longer barrel have a higher learning curve than the short one?  Yeah, it does.  Took me a few matches to learn to properly negotiate the longer barrel in the occasionally more cramped space, but once I learned it I discovered that I am not any slower with the long barrel than I am with the short one.  Before long, you figure out how to move the gun as needed quite efficiently.    Now, granted, I am a bottom of the pack shooter, and I freely admit to being in the minority in preferring long barrels on my shotguns, but they do work better for me personally.   Although rare, I have seen others using the long barrel and be right up there with the top shooters, so it is possible.  You just gotta learn how to do it.

But what do I know?   I use a Lightning.  :P

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1 hour ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

Once, just to see if it was possible, I swapped the barrels on my two 97s.  They fit like a glove.  

That being said, as cool as it would be to have two barrels for my 97, I don't recall ever seeing a barrel assembly for sale anyplace.  Finding a second gun would be far easier, I think.   

Does the longer barrel have a higher learning curve than the short one?  Yeah, it does.  Took me a few matches to learn to properly negotiate the longer barrel in the occasionally more cramped space, but once I learned it I discovered that I am not any slower with the long barrel than I am with the short one.  Before long, you figure out how to move the gun as needed quite efficiently.    Now, granted, I am a bottom of the pack shooter, and I freely admit to being in the minority in preferring long barrels on my shotguns, but they do work better for me personally.   Although rare, I have seen others using the long barrel and be right up there with the top shooters, so it is possible.  You just gotta learn how to do it.

But what do I know?   I use a Lightning.  :P

Please...seriously. This is bad information. It is not simply a learning curve. If one is shooting on stages with facades, it's significantly more difficult and slower to negotiate with a 30/32" barrel. 

 

If one doesn't give a rip about their stage times and or just likes the looks of the long barrel, then go for it! But to claim that it's simply a longer learning curve is not correct info to be giving a new shooter.

 

Phantom

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Thanks for the replies!! I do currently have a shorter barreled solid frame purpose built 97 that my son shoots well. The second gun would be mine (son moving) and backup to first, wild bunch, etc. I've held off for many years on doing anything with the 30" and may bit longer.  Thanks!  

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If you cut..... you could regret

If you don't cut..... you shouldn't have any regrets.

 

Find yeself a good Winny or IAC 97 with the 20 (or 22) in barrel and be happy.   If you want to shorten the barrel, then cutting

one of those is something some of us do as a preference..... and it didn't effect its value or our conscience.  :D

 

In my opinion, Phantom is in the 'upper crust' of good 97 shooters.   I don't know what barrel length he prefers,

but you can be assured that its a good length for fast shooting and negotiating a stage.

 

..........Widder

 

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Just now, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

If you cut..... you could regret

If you don't cut..... you shouldn't have any regrets.

 

Find yeself a good Winny or IAC 97 with the 20 (or 22) in barrel and be happy.   If you want to shorten the barrel, then cutting

one of those is something some of us do as a preference..... and it didn't effect its value or our conscience.  :D

 

In my opinion, Phantom is in the 'upper crust' of good 97 shooters.   I don't know what barrel length he prefers,

but you can be assured that its a good length for fast shooting and negotiating a stage.

 

..........Widder

 

I don't hold a candle to Widderborg when it comes to shooting a 97...but I shoot a 21".

 

;)

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20 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I don't hold a candle to Widderborg when it comes to shooting a 97...but I shoot a 21".

 

;)

 

Thanks..... but on a good day, I think Phantomborg can hold his own with anyone.

 

Anyhow, from my observance and conversations with other TOP 97 shooters, I think most of them use 

between 19-21" barrels.

I think Red Knee uses a 20-21", but he's a pretty big feller.    SLOW, but big.......... :lol:

 

..........Widder

 

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10 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

Thanks..... but on a good day, I think Phantomborg can hold his own with anyone.

 

Anyhow, from my observance and conversations with other TOP 97 shooters, I think most of them use 

between 19-21" barrels.

I think Red Knee uses a 20-21", but he's a pretty big feller.    SLOW, but big.......... :lol:

 

..........Widder

 

 Why don't you and Phantom get a room.;)

 

As for the OP, I would cut that barrel in a heartbeat. In fact, I did. I picked up a last year produced and never hesitated. Off to the Brisco Kid for a chop and action job. That was 8 or so years ago and it still runs like a champ.

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For me shorter is faster,

 I shoot both norinco 97’s and original 97’s with barrels  cut down to just over 18” 
a standard 20” norinco is about .4 second slower than the shorter 97’s On a 4 target speed shotgun side match. 

more on a 6 target setup.   Last sidematch I shot was at the Midwest regional 6 shots in 5.14 seconds.  
With a standard 97,  I would be around 5.75 seconds 

I’m a small framed left handed shooter.  Short stock, short barrel equals faster for me.

I doubt I could break 7 seconds with a 30’” barrel 

Good luck,

 

 

3GC

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I'm of the "Cut baby cut" school.  The "Collector" market for '97s is minuscule if it even exists.  there are still probably a half million of them in the back of closets gathering dust.  I liked mine at 18 1/4.  Very quick handling.  What ever you do .... DO NOT TRY a pipe cutter.

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Slimy, something to also think about.  Your 30" barrel is probably FULL choke which will have a tighter pattern and more recoil.   I know there are those who will say that at the distances we are shooting at it makes no difference what the choke is.   I have two cutdown to 19" late model Winchester 97's with screw in chokes.  I patterned them at normal SASS distance with a Full, a Modified, an Improved Cylinder, and a Cylinder bore choke.  There was a difference in pattern size.  Have the barrel cut, forcing cone lengthened and chamber polished and you will have a good shooting shotgun.  Also, having the ability to change chokes by having screw in chokes put in means you can also use it for Cowboy Clays side matches or bird hunting.

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FWIW, my '97 is solid frame but is 30" full choke, and I like it that way.  I have a 20" Chinese gun as well.  I'd say shoot it that way and see what you think.  You can always cut the barrel later.  Most any 'smith can do that, so you could get it done locally easily if need be.

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On 6/26/2020 at 12:34 PM, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

I'm of the "Cut baby cut" school.  The "Collector" market for '97s is minuscule if it even exists.  there are still probably a half million of them in the back of closets gathering dust.  I liked mine at 18 1/4.  Very quick handling.  What ever you do .... DO NOT TRY a pipe cutter.

+1000

IF the gun in question was a new in the box, unfired, black diamond trap gun - then, "Ok, I agree, don't cut it"

 

But assuming it's a fair to decent used 97, cut that thing where ever you want it and never look back.

 

We play a game that requires various mechanical devices - make the devices work their best for you.

 

Yes, there is cost and value associated with wear and tear and use and modification.

 

But there is a cost to using devices that are not best configured for success too.

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