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Artie Fly, SASS #25397

BP Cartridge question

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I just loaded a bunch of shells using true black.  Previously I was using a BP sub.  Not thinking about it, I loaded the usual smokeless bullet I was using with APP or Black Max.  What can I expect if I use these without BP lube?  Should I run a rag in the rifle after every stage?  Is shooting these a serious no-no?  I really want to avoid pulling all these bullets.

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Lube???

 

I shoot BP...

 

Lube???

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Posted (edited)

 

Depends (they come by the box).  You are going to get some fouling.  Some will be crusty fouling.  Accuracy will degrade quickly.  You will need/should run a wet patch thru the bore every stage.  My suggestion would be to use PAM.  PAM Is equal parts Hydrogen Peroxide, Alcohol and Murphy's Oil Soap.  this is primarily for rifle.  Handguns, not so much.  You may have a bit more difficulty cleaning after the match, but there is no reason to pull the bullets.  Just a tidily bit more hassle.  At CAS ranges, accuracies may not degrade enough to really notice.  Minute of Pie Plate will suffice.

 

PS:  For rifle, just chamber a fired case while you swab the bore.  Don't forget to eject it. 

Edited by Colorado Coffinmaker
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"Lube" is kind of a misnomer to my understanding...it doesn't really lubricate, it just keeps the fouling soft (making it easier to blast out on subsequent shots, and makes the gun easier to clean).

 

With your revolvers, you could always put lube in front of the cartridges, the way some folks load their C&B revolvers.  

 

I've run matches with lubed bullets, with unlubed bullets...I've never been able to tell the difference.  

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Thanks for the quick responses.  I should have specified these are rifle rounds.  I'll take care to run a patch each stage or so.  I'll try the PAM recipe.

Thanks All!

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Posted (edited)

I would keep a bore snake in plastic container filled with water and just pull the bore snake through the bore between stages while at the match.  Clean the bore within a day after the match.  It may not be absolutely necessary, but as Colorado Coffinmaker said, accuracy will degrade as fouling builds up.  I learned the hard way at a match with small distant targets.  Yeah, some clubs still do that.

 

You can wash the bore snake later.

Edited by J-BAR #18287

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I would only disassemble them if they were long range rifle cartridges, and you are shooting for precision.  Otherwise, clean as above during matches.   I use PAM for BP cleaning, also - great stuff.    Cleans kitchen stoves and microwaves well too!

 

Normally you would want to use a BP compatible lube such as SPG or a homemade grease containing lots of crisco or lard.  As said, it doesn't do much but keep fouling softer, but that is a BIG DEAL when shooting BP cartridges.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

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You can also shoot a little  balistol down the barrel  after each stage to keep the fouling soft, pam works great for cleaning. I shoot  it  down the barrel  from the action side after the shoot and clean as soon as I get home. Black powder lube is  your friend.

Rafe 

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When shooting Real BP, I do prefer a well lubed bullet. That is one of the main reasons that I developed the Big Lube Snakebite Bullet. The Lube does indeed help to keep things soft, but it also stops the bullet for "Galling" as it get toward the end of the rifle barrel. If it were me... I would simply dip the nose of every other bullet into a small vessel of SPG. That will give you plenty of lube down the bore.

 

Snakebite

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Usually seen by retailers of bullets are regular lube bullets for smokeless or substitue Bp or black powder lube  for real Bp or Pyrodex. Questioni I have is how do Hi-Tek or polymer coated figure in to shooting with real black powder. Ok or not? 

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Some moose milk in a spray bottle. Take a shot, eject empty, spray, close lever, take a shot, eject.....You get the idea. Repeat as many times as needed to finish the stage.

 

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5 minutes ago, Tulsey, SASS#11236 said:

Usually seen by retailers of bullets are regular lube bullets for smokeless or substitue Bp or black powder lube  for real Bp or Pyrodex. Questioni I have is how do Hi-Tek or polymer coated figure in to shooting with real black powder. Ok or not? 

Not real good,  the moly lube does not work the best with real black. It is awesome with BP substitutes. You need a softer lube for black.

Rafe 

 

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Posted (edited)

I am not a fan of the poly bullets with BP or 777. They worked with the citrus based powders, but I still prefer a soft lubed, soft lead bullet. 

Snakebite

Edited by Snakebite

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What the hell...polycoated bullets and a little Ballistal after each stage...no problems.

 

Do folks just want BP to sound difficult?

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10 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

What the hell...polycoated bullets and a little Ballistal after each stage...no problems.

 

Do folks just want BP to sound difficult?

 

YES!

 

The less competition the better.

 

Now be vvveeerrryyy qqquuuiiieeetttt we're hunting belt buckles:D

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1 hour ago, Tulsey, SASS#11236 said:

Usually seen by retailers of bullets are regular lube bullets for smokeless or substitue Bp or black powder lube  for real Bp or Pyrodex. Questioni I have is how do Hi-Tek or polymer coated figure in to shooting with real black powder. Ok or not? 

 

Just fine. My good buddy @Ruff Kut has it down to a science. 

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Arty, just don't sign up for Cody Dixon while shooting those rounds.  :)

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2 hours ago, J-BAR #18287 said:

I would keep a bore snake in plastic container filled with water and just pull the bore snake through the bore between stages while at the match.  Clean the bore within a day after the match.  It may not be absolutely necessary, but as Colorado Coffinmaker said, accuracy will degrade as fouling builds up.  I learned the hard way at a match with small distant targets.  Yeah, some clubs still do that.

 

You can wash the bore snake later.

Titus Gnatsass does something similar as he regularly shoots BP with smokeless lubed bullets. Cleans his rifle at the end of the match too. 

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1 hour ago, Rafe Conager SASS #56958 said:

Not real good,  the moly lube does not work the best with real black. It is awesome with BP substitutes. You need a softer lube for black.

Rafe 

 

 

Really, :o I've been shooting Bear Creek moly-coated with real BP for the last 17 yrs, with minimal issue. ;)

OLG 

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Running Ballistol down my bore after each stage sounds to difficult, I think I will just load bullets that hold enough of lube, as it takes no more time than loading any other kind of bullet. I have enough to do running the timer, picking brass, setting targets and keeping the 16 guns my wife , daughter, and I use at the matches. Color me lazy.

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1 minute ago, Springfield Slim SASS #24733 said:

Running Ballistol down my bore after each stage sounds to difficult, I think I will just load bullets that hold enough of lube, as it takes no more time than loading any other kind of bullet. I have enough to do running the timer, picking brass, setting targets and keeping the 16 guns my wife , daughter, and I use at the matches. Color me lazy.

Or color you something else...

 

My dies stay clean...and a squirt of Ballistal takes a fraction of a second...so shoot one second faster and use that second to Ballistal yer guns.

 

:o

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50 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

 

Really, :o I've been shooting Bear Creek moly-coated with real BP for the last 17 yrs, with minimal issue. ;)

OLG 

Well you're obviously doin it wrong!:lol:

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I use bullets from Buffalo Arms with 3 deep grease groves filled with SPG. Judicious use of hot water, Windex with vinegar and Ballistol works well for me. I use a bore snake, brush on a rod, use a blow tube in BPCR after every shot plus the rod and brush with Ballistol.

 

It may be overkill but my guns and I like it.  :wub:

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Like any other black powder subject everyone has their own opinion and methods. What i've noticed when running true bp with lube intended for smokeless powders is your fouling gets crusty quick, Accuracy suffers, guns tend not to operate as smoothly, and they are a little more difficult to scrub up at the end of the day. Swabbing your rifle barrel between stages will be a must. I've used bore butter or similar products before starting the day and it seemed to help. Just run a couple lubed patches through the barrel. Keep a rag handy and wipe your revolver cylinders down between stages and you should be good to go. 

Normally I run a 50/50 beeswax/tallow lube on my bullets and dont do anything to my guns between stages. I'll run 6 stages and never need to swab a bore or wipe anything down.  

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Y'all need to remember the OP was asking about bullets that he loaded and then realized it might not be a good idea. He asks for opinions on whether he could go ahead and shoot these without too much bother as he didn't want to pull them down. All this "I shoot this and load that" is not germane to the question.

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In reality we really can't answer to OP's question, as we don't know the caliber of the gun, the style and weight of the bullet, which BP he uses, nor the granulation. Maybe he uses filler. Maybe he lives where it is humid out or maybe it is dry as a dustbowl. There is no one right answer. Personally I think he might be OK with a pistol but if his rifle is any longer than a carbine he might have some carbon build-up if he doesn't swab the barrel often. At least that has been my experience from shooting BP for the last 12 years. I have never shot Moly coated nor polymer coated in a BP gun so have no experience there.

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Of all the posts, there seems to be a consensus on three methods that'll get you good to go for yer bullets and black powder:

1) Pull a wet bore snake through the barrel after each stage.

2) Dip the nose of the bullet in a soft lube as you load the rifle.

3) Spray a liquid of your choice down the barrel after each stage.

 

Pick the one that'll be easiest for you and you'll be good to go.

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I think what everyone is saying is yes you can shoot them,  but spray some type of lube to keep the fouling soft and run a wet patch or bore snake through it every few stages to make clean up easier.  

Rafe 

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Thanks for the feedback everyone.  FYI, these are 44-40 full case loads for a slicked up Taylor's '73 carbine.  Nowadays, I am shooting mostly in central Texas, where 60% is low humidity.  It can get hot enough to melt BP lubes, so with my cap guns I use 50/50 beeswax/lard.

 

Abilene - I am shooting Trailhead this weekend, but not planning on Cody-Dixon.  Hope to see you there.

 

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10 hours ago, Goody, SASS #26190 said:

Y'all need to remember the OP was asking about bullets that he loaded and then realized it might not be a good idea. He asks for opinions on whether he could go ahead and shoot these without too much bother as he didn't want to pull them down. All this "I shoot this and load that" is not germane to the question.

What the hell does one's nationality have to do with this???

 

I really don't understand the relevance of being German to the OP's question.

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1 minute ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

What the hell does one's nationality have to do with this???

 

I really don't understand the relevance of being German to the OP's question.

GermanE. not German. You really need to lay off the edibles.

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10 hours ago, Springfield Slim SASS #24733 said:

In reality we really can't answer to OP's question, as we don't know the caliber of the gun, the style and weight of the bullet, which BP he uses, nor the granulation. Maybe he uses filler. Maybe he lives where it is humid out or maybe it is dry as a dustbowl. There is no one right answer. Personally I think he might be OK with a pistol but if his rifle is any longer than a carbine he might have some carbon build-up if he doesn't swab the barrel often. At least that has been my experience from shooting BP for the last 12 years. I have never shot Moly coated nor polymer coated in a BP gun so have no experience there.

I would have to disagree with this statement. If he shoots a 5 or 6 stage match with real black powder  and does no cleaning between stages, he is going to have some really fouled out guns that might not even cycle.

Lucky

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ToMAAto, ToMauto, GermAne, German.  Thanks for the comic relief Phantom & Goody.

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29 minutes ago, Goody, SASS #26190 said:

GermanE. not German. You really need to lay off the edibles.

So now it's a spelling contest??

 

:P

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