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Yet more 44-40 issues


Bootless Bob

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There seems to be a lot of this going around, now I have a 44-40 issue.  Loading for new to me Uberti Taylors Gunfighters (SAA replica).  Both guns exhibit the following problem one worse than the other.  Primers are backing out.  My loads using 200gr RNFP Desperado Bullets, 2 or 3 times fired starline brass, Federal LPP, light roll crimp, Shuetzen FF, three loads tried, 19gr, 24gr, 32gr (full case). Gun 1 fired okay  but once all five rounds were fired there was so much drag I could not turn the cylinder further. Gun 2 was worse, it would seize up with just one or two shots fired. All primers were backing out.  This is not an issue with the guns fowling all guns were clean, Gun 2 was squeaky clean when I tried the full case load for FF and seized up with one shot.

 I also tried some smokeless to see if more pressure would solve the issue, guns were thoroughly cleaned.  With 5.5 grains trail boss, using MO Bullets 200gr RNFP coated. Both guns exhibited the exact same issue. 

What I have checked, primers seated completely from the remaining batch. I’m pretty sure they are, all are below flush.  I loaded a few test rounds fresh and carefully seated the primers, I can feel them bottom out as always.

What I want to check is using different primers, I have Winchester LPP, CCI and Federal mag match yet to try.

I don’t think it is a light load, a full case of BP is not a light load in my book.  Nor is 5.5 grains of Trail Boss, kind of standard stuff people shoot all the time in SASS.

Any ideas on what I should check, would the light crimp be an issue?

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Sounds like the flash hole in the primer pocket has been drilled out. The flash hole is the same size in all cases so compare its size to cases you are 100% sure are correct.

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To be sure the primers are backing out, do they have drag/scrape marks across them?  Did you use filler in the less-then-full charges of BP?  When it is "locked up" can you turn the cylinder with the gun on half-cock?

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21 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

Sounds like the flash hole in the primer pocket has been drilled out. The flash hole is the same size in all cases so compare its size to cases you are 100% sure are correct.

 

They should be all the same, I bought 1k new from starline.  non have been drilled out. 

edit:  I have no other 44-40 brass to compare too.

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Not saying this is your problem just want to point out at one time I had a USFA start locking up and everyone said it was primers backing out. The thing was the same ammo worked in all kinds of other SAA pistols with no issue. Chased the primer backing out for months trying to figure out what was going on because everyone I asked said that was what was going on. Well, it was not primers backing out. In fact primers always back out and then are reseated by recoil. What it turned out to be was the recoil plate had recessed just enough for the primer to catch on it. I was new to the sport at the time and everyone I asked never once said look to see what the primer is catching on for it to drag. Since then I always look to see what it is dragging on first because that is usually what is going on. Hope this helps!

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11 minutes ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

To be sure the primers are backing out, do they have drag/scrape marks across them?  Did you use filler in the less-then-full charges of BP?  When it is "locked up" can you turn the cylinder with the gun on half-cock?

 

Not really on the drag marks.  They are pushed out, you can clearly see and feel them drag across back side of the revolver face (think its called a blast shield).  I reloaded the spent brass this morning with it on half cock, drags really bad.  If I really twist hard I can get it to turn.  Load just one and the cylinder spins easily until it gets to the top and stops.  Then twist supper hard to get it to come around.

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Actually the face of the primers is pretty distorted, very uneven in appearance.  If you see the above pictures they are all very convex in shape proud of the brass face with a deep primer indentation.  They are not flat and smooth such as when they are fired from my 1873 rifle. 

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I have two thought in my initial WAG (Military acronym for Wild Ass'd Guess) I have two suspicions.  Your primers exhibit two issues.  First issue is the firing pin hole area in the Recoil Shield is not correct.  Second issue is Head Space.  Head Space between cartridge case head and the recoil shield is optimum at .004 - .005

 

If the guns are new, Taylors owes you warranty.  Send them back.  Include several fired cases particular to each gun.  If the guns are not new purchase by you, contact Taylors anyway.  They may well want them back.

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1 minute ago, Bootless Bob said:

I'll look into shooting my ammo in other guns.

 

But the breach face look all chewed up!  I didn't notice until now.

 

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Dang! That is your problem. That area is suppose to be smooth.

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13 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

.... Your primers exhibit two issues.  First issue is the firing pin hole area in the Recoil Shield is not correct.  Second issue is Head Space.  Head Space between cartridge case head and the recoil shield is optimum at .004 - .005 ....

 

The gun that has the most problem has a .012 gap, the other is .006. 

 

 

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You need to replace the recoil shield, you can clearly see it's very distorted. It happened on one of my USFA's in .44-40. You will have to get a gunsmith to do it, as it's not something that I would attempt. That's the little circular part which the primer backs into during firing, then relies upon the recoil to reseat into the case.

 

 

TB

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PLUS ONE too Warden and Abilene.  Someone with poop for brains has attacked the recoil shield with some form of punch.  The firing pin hole is both recessed and dimpled.  The repair is going to be expensive.  The recoil shield cannot be replaced.  It will have to be repaired.  Warden Callaway has information on someone who can do the work.  It is NOT DIY.  Hate to give you sorry news, but as is, both guns are junk.

 

You may be able to fix the head space problem with new cylinder bushings but not until the face of the recoil shield is repaired. 

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Looks like someone took a ball peen hammer to the gun, not even counting the messed up firing pin hole.

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What is the history on those pistols?  If purchased new from Taylors that is a serious factory quality control issue.  If bought used, it looks like the previous owner was aware of the binding issue and attempted to fix it before passing them off.  Looks like the classic "I own a dremel so that makes me a gunsmith" at home repair attempt.

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Wow! Looks like I tried to work on them,  that's why I refuse to work on my guns other than general maintenance. Those are definitely hammer marks on the recoil shield. If from the factory send them back, if bought from someone else you might want to have a discussion with them.  Looks like a trip to a good gunsmith is in order.

Rafe 

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5aac111847fef_SmokeWagonfphNov2017.jpg.fa0055732cb253bf37d288285563437d.jpg

 

Crater around firing pin hole in Taylor's Smoke Wagon bought used.  

 

5aac115ce90ff_SmokeWagonrepairMarch2018.jpg.45a6256ef9ae4b7ebb3d6ce10862689b.jpg

 

Two prominent gunsmith shops said they couldn't be fixed.  Taylor's and Company said they were not worth fixing. 

 

Ahlman's in Morristown Minnesota welded them up and made them new again. But charged nearly $400 (max of their estimate) for the pair and took 6 months to get back. 

 

Try Spring Creek Armory in Ten Sleeps Wyoming.

 

https://springcreekarmory.com/

 

He specialises in Colt SAA and does difficult metal repair.  He's rebuilt two Colt hammers for me - welding up the broken notches and recutting the notches. 

 

 

 

 

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Lassiter up in Ohio does some GREAT TIG welding and would probably be able to make these recoil shields right.

 

Yes, these guns have been badly abused!   And that much head space is abnormal.    Headspace and then cylinder-to-barrel gap need to be checked after repairs. 

 

I would guess the abuse was from the gun sticking badly and a previous shooter wedged a screw driver !#@^*&  between frame and cylinder to be able to cycle the cylinder with high primers.  Then took a Dremel tool to the recoil shield to try to smooth things out, and made it much worse!  

 

If you paid much for these guns, you need some corrective refund to fix this abuse.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

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Could have shot a cylinder full of Modern/Ruger only loads then used his powered gunsmith (Dremel) tool on it trying to fix the to heavy loads damage.  If it was me they would be made into non-shooting wall hangers and buy a  pair of new ones or buy from someone you know didn't hurt the guns.  

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If they were mine, I'd cut my losses.  Make wall hangers or sell the parts that are still good, and buy new ones. 

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I recently read somewhere else this exact issue being fixed using some type of either epoxy or liquid steel. Held up for over a year shooting lite cowboy loads.

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33 minutes ago, Ranger Dan said:

I recently read somewhere else this exact issue being fixed using some type of either epoxy or liquid steel. Held up for over a year shooting lite cowboy loads.

 

I tried JB Weld on the pair we have and it didn't last a cylinder full.

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2 minutes ago, Bootless Bob said:

 

I'm still here, problem is unresolved.  Thanks all for your comments. 

 

Tell us how you came across this revolver. 

You may well need to plan on a replacement as the 'fix' will be more than it's worth. 

OLG 

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6 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

 

Tell us how you came across this revolver. 

You may well need to plan on a replacement as the 'fix' will be more than it's worth. 

OLG 

 

Purchased from the SASS wire classifieds.  

 

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3 hours ago, Bootless Bob said:

 

Purchased from the SASS wire classifieds.  

 

 

I hate the fact that the seller of this crap can't be called out on the wire. too bad! Until folks are held accountable, it won't stop!

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