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Chuckwagon McTaggart

Updated:Reloading issues with 44-40

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I am looking for a bullet vendor that sells a 200 grain bullet sized to .428 that has the same profile as the bullet on the left.  If I try to use the style on the right, I run into a couple of problems.  The first is that my Redding crimp die catches on the driving band (not certain of correct terminology) and will alter the seating depth of the bullet.  The second issue is that one of my revolvers seems to have tight cylinder throats, and doesn't seem to like the bullet on the right.  In addition to a suggested vendor, any other questions, comments or advice is welcomed.531317091_Bulletprofilecomparison.thumb.jpg.6542a21acdb1ea8059b72b66450d8290.jpg

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The size is right not sure if it’s the profile you’re looking for.  Scarlett

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There are a couple of issues here, I believe.  If one of your revolvers has tight throats, it might be best to try .427 sized bullets.  I'm not sure what you mean by the crimp die "catching" on the driving band.  The profile of the bullet on the right suggests the there is a crimp groove above the lube groove, and normally the upper groove is where the crimp is applied.   It is possible that the bullet is being roll crimped, which can cause the brass to bulge if too much pressure is applied.  A taper crimp might be a better way to crimp the bullet.  Shooter's suggestion seems closest to the profile you're looking for, though.   If you haven't done so, contact Chey Cast and speak with Hank.  He might be able to give you some advice.

 

Tex

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50 minutes ago, Tequila Shooter said:

The size is right not sure if it’s the profile you’re looking for.  Scarlett

In the pictures on Her website the 44-40 bullets look like the profile on the right.

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23 minutes ago, Tex Jones, SASS 2263 said:

There are a couple of issues here, I believe.  If one of your revolvers has tight throats, it might be best to try .427 sized bullets.  I'm not sure what you mean by the crimp die "catching" on the driving band.  The profile of the bullet on the right suggests the there is a crimp groove above the lube groove, and normally the upper groove is where the crimp is applied.   It is possible that the bullet is being roll crimped, which can cause the brass to bulge if too much pressure is applied.  A taper crimp might be a better way to crimp the bullet.  Shooter's suggestion seems closest to the profile you're looking for, though.   If you haven't done so, contact Chey Cast and speak with Hank.  He might be able to give you some advice.

 

Tex

I don't want to go with a smaller sized diameter bullet. The barrels of my rifle and revolvers all slug .428 or larger.  I'm hoping that if I can find the correct bullet that I might actually be able to go larger. The bullet on the right in the original picture is properly crimped in the crimp groove.  Here is a picture of that bullet.

20200609_103109.jpg

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5a04816838420_44WCFMissouribulletsNovember2017.jpg.74b4cdc7986e502680b7cbe78c3d7383.jpg

 

Been there, done that.  Bullet on left won't chamber in Sawmill Mary's Smoke Wagons in 44WCF.   Bullet on right will.

 

She will only shoot Missouri Bullet Company Hi-tech 428 bullets.  Also available without coating smokeless or BP lube.

 

https://missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=389&category=5

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Warden, that looks more like what I'm looking for.  I thought I remembered you posting about this, but I didn't have any luck finding it using the search function on the forum.

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16 minutes ago, Chuckwagon McTaggart said:

Warden, that looks more like what I'm looking for.  I thought I remembered you posting about this, but I didn't have any luck finding it using the search function on the forum.

 

It's been archived.   I often use Google search with SASSnet in the search string. 

 

Missouri Bullet Company has different weights of 44 bullets but many are cataloged as 430 diameter.  If you want 428 diameter in one that is cataloged as 430,  they will size to 428 (or 427) at no charge with 1,000 count order. 

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I'd bet the Redding die would crimp that "wide-driving band" bullet if you seated the slug so the case mouth was right at the "corner" between the driving band and the round nose.  It has a great design for the crimp element that can roll crimp right into the band of a hard cast slug, as well as the ability to remove any over-sized neck on the finished case.    If you have more of those slugs, I'd give that a try before plunking down even more money.

 

Good luck, GJ

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2 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

I'd bet the Redding die would crimp that "wide-driving band" bullet if you seated the slug so the case mouth was right at the "corner" between the driving band and the round nose.  It has a great design for the crimp element that can roll crimp right into the band of a hard cast slug, as well as the ability to remove any over-sized neck on the finished case.    If you have more of those slugs, I'd give that a try before plunking down even more money.

 

Good luck, GJ

I had considered trying that, but I was concerned that the magazine spring pressure in the rifle might push the bullet into the case.  I wasn't confident that the thin neck would bite into the approx. 16 Brinell hardness bullet.  I'll give it a try.  It would be pretty convenient to be able to stick with the bullet vendor I got those bullets from, they are just 2.5 hours down the road.

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Test your rounds after you load a new way.   Hold cartridge in hand.  Find a hard surface, like a garage door jamb, that is about waist level.  Push nose of loaded round into that surface, exerting about 50 pounds force.  If bullet does not collapse with that, it will never collapse in a magazine!

 

Good luck, GJ 

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Some, if not most reloading dies are designed for jacketed bullets, which is why i prefer RCBS cowboy dies for some calibers, as they are sized a bit larger so they don't smear the lead bullet when seating. I do prefer my Redding crimp die for 44-40, though, just worked better for me, and more consistent then some others.

   This bullet might work for you, although588795775_miniMAV.JPG.26e54eb009fdfbc8df59d29e08eb2944.JPG only 180 grains.

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RCBS offers a .428 sizer, allowing you to utilize the selection of .429-.430 bullets in profiles you favor.

Another thought is that I have some Lasercast that are packaged and sold as .427 but which measure .428. I can't use them because my gun is sized for .430 and was leading badly.

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16 minutes ago, Roscoe Regulator said:

RCBS offers a .428 sizer, allowing you to utilize the selection of .429-.430 bullets in profiles you favor.

Another thought is that I have some Lasercast that are packaged and sold as .427 but which measure .428. I can't use them because my gun is sized for .430 and was leading badly.

 

We had a gazillion bullets sized 430.  I bought a Lee sizing die and and sized enough to feed Sawmill Mary's Smoke Wagons. Then we switched to 428 on everything. 

 

5a1c706b6ae06_ResizingbulletsNov2017.thumb.jpg.36a5aad7285a0cb539a2a42b324fd00a.jpg

 

 

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You might look at Mastercraft bullets.  They've got a variety of bullet weights, shapes and diameters-to-order. 

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You can't go wrong with the OUTLAW bullet

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On 6/9/2020 at 5:46 PM, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

I'd bet the Redding die would crimp that "wide-driving band" bullet if you seated the slug so the case mouth was right at the "corner" between the driving band and the round nose.  It has a great design for the crimp element that can roll crimp right into the band of a hard cast slug, as well as the ability to remove any over-sized neck on the finished case.    If you have more of those slugs, I'd give that a try before plunking down even more money.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

On 6/9/2020 at 8:50 PM, Chuckwagon McTaggart said:

I had considered trying that, but I was concerned that the magazine spring pressure in the rifle might push the bullet into the case.  I wasn't confident that the thin neck would bite into the approx. 16 Brinell hardness bullet.  I'll give it a try.  It would be pretty convenient to be able to stick with the bullet vendor I got those bullets from, they are just 2.5 hours down the road.

 

On 6/9/2020 at 10:08 PM, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Test your rounds after you load a new way.   Hold cartridge in hand.  Find a hard surface, like a garage door jamb, that is about waist level.  Push nose of loaded round into that surface, exerting about 50 pounds force.  If bullet does not collapse with that, it will never collapse in a magazine!

 

Good luck, GJ 

I did a couple of things that seem to have solved my problem.  I crimped above the crimp groove up near the corner of the driving band as suggested by Garrison Joe, and tested for collapse as described.  This resulted in an overall cartridge length of 1.550 instead of the 1.595 that I was getting when crimping in the groove.

The other thing that I did was adjusting my sizing die to push the shoulder back a little farther.  

I made 6 dummy rounds as described above and they all drop into and back out of the cylinder freely.20200612_153228.thumb.jpg.31afa348561ed5dbced516c6fad64f65.jpg

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And thanks again to everyone who offered help and advice.

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Now that looks like a "proper" .44-40 cartridge.  Only ogive sticking out the front of the case mouth.  And still long enough to feed through unmodified toggle action rifles.

Good luck, GJ

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You can't go wrong with the OUTLAW bullet

 

My first try with the 44-40 I learned to set the sizing die to move the shoulder of the case back a small amount.

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Mark Whyte casts bullets with thrue 44-40 profiles
http://www.whyteleatherworks.com/BigLube.html

Whyte's  "Toggle" is the Accurate Mold 43-215C  -

 430-205M.JPG

 

Whyte's "Traditional" is the Lyman 427098 - 

430-210B.JPG

 

 

 

The Redding 44-40 Profile Die is for use with 44-40 true profile bullets like the Lyman 427098 or the Winchester JSP. Both of these designs are in line with the curve of the bullet (the O'give). Other designs that follow the profile are the Speer 200gr .429 HJSP, Accurate Mold's 43-xxx series molds such as the 43-215C and the 43-214A. These are designed after the Lyman 427098. Most of the commercial lead bullets used today are cast from a Magma Engineering mold and has an exposed driving band which does not have a true 44-40 O'give profile.

The issue the op is having is that the Redding profile die is catching on the exposed driving band. https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/handloading

 

67746561_1232303353616912_6175590014420779008_n.thumb.jpg.5ca35ce2e9c15446568ba95095c98dbd.jpg

After crimping with a roll crimp into a bullet designed with a roll crimp groove, especially an oversized bullet like a .430", the case will bulge just below the crimp. This bulge will sometimes exceed the mouth diameter and is why most will not chamber in tight chambers in revolvers. Rifles are the same but not noticed because the leverage achieved when chambering.

67946279_1232264906954090_4466792702536581120_n.thumb.jpg.8315ef0cb0364ccb6afd6873ac6576b6.jpg

This "bulge" needs to be "resized" and is achieved with the Redding Profile die but not with the Magma design bullets.

 

The Lee Factory Crimp Dies memicks 44-40 factory crimps from around the 1970's and can leave a "void" and a "ring" as can be seen in one of the photos below with the red mark. This "void" is caused when the collet in the LFCD is used on oversized bullets from not closing all the way before the forced crimp....pushing the case through the void. This creates a weak spot and can cause the case to split over time or when using standard pressure loads.

66698488_1214865565360691_1700307548814442496_n.thumb.jpg.364955f1f8367c08e8f7b3e9e34a14a4.jpg

The Redding Profile Crimp follows the curvature (o'give) of the bullet and squeezes the mouth of the bullet into the soft lead as well as retaining the proper neck diameter for chambering. So the Redding Profile Die needs to be used on bullets that are true 44-40 "profile" bullets, both lead and jacketed. The first setting is for lead bullets, produces a roll type crimp. Screwing the die down further for jacketed crimp groves creates the crimp on the cartridge to the right. One die, two crimps.

78926364_567099084077593_2180765710353956864_n.thumb.jpg.1fd35d4fbc9a8dbbfb444593d7c22573.jpg


 

 

867361254_77221330_1744354482623119_8837394364029206528_n-Copy.jpg.df15692a9ec69f4350661a9229d635e6.jpg

 

The following photo is the 43-214A before a crimp has been used and a pulled bullet after a crimp was used. The bullet on the right shows the forced crimp into the soft lead produced by the Redding Profile Crimp.

67618028_1231029147077666_6265527011851108352_n.jpg.1beb82f18e51ba544bd1e6a183f3e8aa.jpg

 

369460734_Abulletlineup.jpg.b5c561f1412c9f9fb1c4b6af0af7713e.jpg

 

67415833_1231098587070722_8880039626887135232_n.jpg.0d34602a7d80225ff01958170be38ee1.jpg

In this photo, one can see the crimp differences between the Redding and Lee dies and the results from larger bullet diameters.

 

 

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Savvy Jack,Thanks for taking the time to post such a detailed explanation.  I think for now, I am on the path to success.  My problems of some of my rounds not passing a "chamber check" , by using the tighter cylinder removed from the revolver, was solved by adjusting the sizing die to push the shoulder back a little more.  The problem with the driving band interfering with the crimp die and causing inconsistent seating depth and inconsistent crimps seems to have been fixed by seating the Magma profile bullet deeper and crimping near the top of the driving band.  Thanks again for taking the time to help explain the problem I was having.  

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19 hours ago, Chuckwagon McTaggart said:

The problem with the driving band interfering with the crimp die and causing inconsistent seating depth and inconsistent crimps seems to have been fixed by seating the Magma profile bullet deeper and crimping near the top of the driving band.  Thanks again for taking the time to help explain the problem I was having.  

'

Should be fine with lighter loaded CAS rounds. Keep in mind that seating the bullet deeper with normal published loads will increase chamber pressures if that load is for shallow seating bullets.

 

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4 hours ago, Savvy Jack said:

'

Should be fine with lighter loaded CAS rounds. Keep in mind that seating the bullet deeper with normal published loads will increase chamber pressures if that load is for shallow seating bullets.

 

I am aware, but a reminder never hurts.  Have you done any testing comparing pressures and velocity differences between cast lead vs. Hi-tek coated cast lead of same design and weight?

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2 hours ago, Chuckwagon McTaggart said:

I am aware, but a reminder never hurts.  Have you done any testing comparing pressures and velocity differences between cast lead vs. Hi-tek coated cast lead of same design and weight?

 

I never did any side-by-side testing. There is so much more testing I would liked to have done.

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31 minutes ago, Savvy Jack said:

 

I never did any side-by-side testing. There is so much more testing I would liked to have done.

I am grateful that you took the time to conduct and publish so much of the testing that you have.  I have stumbled across a good amount of your data as I seek to learn more about 44WCF.

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