H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 There are ten revolver targets. With the shooter standing facing down range, Targets 1-5 are about 30 degrees to the shooters left, and targets 6-10 are about 30 degrees to shooters right. Rifles and shotguns can be however they want to be for this stage, but for the pistols the instructions would read something like, "From the pistol firing position, engage the targets in the following order, 1-10-2-9-3-8-4-5. [I call this a Driftwood Johnson Sweep, but the name has not caught on.] Shooters may engage pistol targets gunfighter style if they so desire. I am wondering about the "appropriateness" of the italicized line at the end. No one is required to shoot it gunfighter, but it gives the option to all shooters, specifically and only for this string. Is this something that is allowable in stage writing under the rules? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace_of_Hearts Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 Depending on the range setup this may cause splatter and even pieces of bullets to go places they shouldn't be going. ALWAYS be cautious when setting targets at an angle to the firing line. On a SMOOTH steel surface the splatter with be a 360 degrees cone of lead at 25 degrees from the surface plain if the bullet strikes perpendicular to the surface. If you are adding another 30 degrees you are in danger of sending large bullet fragments off in directions that you cannot control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cypress Sun Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 I see no problem with it except for crossdraw users. For this stage, I would suggest staging of pistols on table in front of shooter and pistols to be returned to table upon pistol sequence completion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 Posted June 9, 2020 Author Share Posted June 9, 2020 30 minutes ago, Cypress Sun said: I see no problem with it except for crossdraw users. For this stage, I would suggest staging of pistols on table in front of shooter and pistols to be returned to table upon pistol sequence completion. Good point. It continues to give everyone the option with no disadvantages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Hanger #3720LR Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 I am a cross draw shooter and I see nothng wrong with this stage. I would rather not use a table for my revolvers. Placing revolvers on table is not someting done normally and is something requiring extra thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 Why would you give the option for shooters to shoot out of category? No sir, I don’t like it. You pick your category and you shoot the match accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Rick Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 9 minutes ago, John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 said: Why would you give the option for shooters to shoot out of category? No sir, I don’t like it. You pick your category and you shoot the match accordingly. Because every once in a while local matches like to have fun and allow shooters the ability to do things they otherwise wouldn't get to try. I've even seen a stage written to shoot the rifle and shotgun weak-handed (if you were comfortable doing it). Talk about a hoot! I'll admit I don't want to see it at every match, but once a year - go for it. Have fun. Would I try to shoot that stage gunfighter if offered the opportunity without penalty for shooting out of category? Absolutely. Would I have a miss or maybe three? Probably. Every shooter has the same opportunity to shoot the stage the same way. Have fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patagonia Pete Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 OK ... you asked sooo ... >>> Make it a "fun" ... "side match" for gunfighters or anyone who wants to give it a try. Otherwise ... it looks like what is called a "good old boy" match ... in this case for gunfighters ... and allowing people to shoot out of category (as already mentioned) confirms it as a "good old boy" match (another example would be having a stage where everyone is allowed to pre-load their shotgun "if they want" at the start of a stage that has 5 shotgun targets ... >> and the "range master" and the people who set up the match all show up with 97s). (or "IS" that the next stage already??) Hopefully ... no one who has never tried (or have difficulty) shooting w/ their off hand or tried shooting gunfighter (pulling both pistols out at the same time) w/ a x-draw hurts themselves or anyone else. Plus ... your setup people are putting out a whole lot of targets for just one stage ... (is rifle going to be 5-6 4-7 3-8 2-9 1-10 ??) AND ... it is probably going to take a long time to get from the first reading of the scenario to the first shot on the stage. Monthly shoot stages go best if they are somewhat intuitive ... for big matches you can send them a book and the shooters can get spend some time figuring out what is going on before arriving at the stage. Just sayin' ... and kidding a lot ... but I'm sure you would get some feedback anyhow w/ you did your stage reviews for this match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene, SASS # 27489 Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 I have conflicting thoughts on this, so bear with me. Lets go back 20 years to Comancheria Days 2000. One stage had a similar setup as the OP mentions. 5 targets straight ahead, with outside to inside to outside. 1-5-2-4-3-3-2-4-1-5. Great gunfighter sequence. Instructions were for everyone to do it gunfighter. Of course, there is always the "unless you feel unsafe". That was the first time I tried gunfighter (I had only been shooting a few months at that point), and loved it. So, for this reason, I like the idea. HOWEVER... Some of you may recall a news story a number of years ago. A cowboy shooter was at a private range, practicing gunfighter style, when he lost control of one gun and ended up shooting and killing himself. Not hard to figure out how this can happen. Take an UNLOADED revolver in you weak hand, cock it, then let go of the grip as though you lost control of it while cocking. Finger still in the triggerguard. Barrel rotates forward and about the time it is aimed at your gut your finger will trip the trigger. So... back to the OP. I think a lot of folks who have never tried GF would try it. Even with a "unless you feel unsafe" added to the instructions. But I personally think that anyone wanting to try GF should always try it first with empty guns. If they try it for the first time at a match with loaded guns, chances for an accident rise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cypress Sun Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 1 hour ago, Cliff Hanger #3720LR said: I am a cross draw shooter and I see nothng wrong with this stage. I would rather not use a table for my revolvers. Placing revolvers on table is not someting done normally and is something requiring extra thought. I'm quite sure that experienced shooters, such as yourself, would have no problem navigating the gunfighter option. I was thinking of others who may not have as much experience. Staging the pistols on a table for all shooters, including gunfighters, would create as level of a playing field as possible for something like this and negate the draw/re-holster concerns. I can't speak for the rest of the Country, but staging pistols on a table isn't uncommon around here. UK, You could call this stage "Silverado" or call the sequence "The Silverado Sweep". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 Great... So now yer going to make it attractive to shoot a stage GF...when there's a good chance the shooter has never done it... I think it's ridiculous...and a bit dangerous. Throwing shooting style carrots out there during a match is stoopid in my OPINION. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baltimore Ed Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 Would also have to agree, a bad idea. Weak hand duelist is not a technique than comes easily to a shooter who always uses both hands to run their revolvers. The only guys that would benefit would be the rare double duelist. Hell, even a duelist would be at a disadvantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancy Shot, SASS #67163 Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 The match director for our November shoot writes each stage to be "friendly" to one of the shooting styles. When signing up, the shooter can choose the "open" category and is then supposed to shoot each stage in the style that stage is friendly to. No one is required to shoot in the open category. We have been doing this for several years. If memory serves, there is about 30% participation in open category. Mr. Uriah - you might consider this. Chancy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cypress Sun Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: Great... So now yer going to make it attractive to shoot a stage GF...when there's a good chance the shooter has never done it... I think it's ridiculous...and a bit dangerous. Throwing shooting style carrots out there during a match is stoopid in my OPINION. Is there anything, in your opinion, that isn't stoopid? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkey Flats Jack Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 10 minutes ago, Cypress Sun said: Is there anything, in your opinion, that isn't stoopid? His opinions! Lol. Nice to see him posting on the wire again though it's been way to calm for a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 Posted June 9, 2020 Author Share Posted June 9, 2020 5 hours ago, John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 said: Why would you give the option for shooters to shoot out of category? No sir, I don’t like it. You pick your category and you shoot the match accordingly. In this one specific scenario, where the five of the targets are to the shooter's left, and five are to the shooter's right, it provides a perfect opportunity to try gunfighter style. Remember, it is optional, and no one who is uncomfy with trying has to do it that way. I have seen strings like this on the past, and have heard people say words to the effect, "Gee, I wish I was a gunfighter for this one." So I wondered, why not write it in as an option on the stage instructions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Ethan # 94321 Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 Took me awhile to get where I could shoot at all with my off hand. I have encouraged others to try shooting gunfighter. Most have passed. Don't think many who have not shoot with their off hand very much would do so for the first time during a match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kloehr Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 5 hours ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said: HOWEVER... Some of you may recall a news story a number of years ago. A cowboy shooter was at a private range, practicing gunfighter style, when he lost control of one gun and ended up shooting and killing himself. Not hard to figure out how this can happen. Take an UNLOADED revolver in you weak hand, cock it, then let go of the grip as though you lost control of it while cocking. Finger still in the triggerguard. Barrel rotates forward and about the time it is aimed at your gut your finger will trip the trigger. So... back to the OP. I think a lot of folks who have never tried GF would try it. Even with a "unless you feel unsafe" added to the instructions. But I personally think that anyone wanting to try GF should always try it first with empty guns. If they try it for the first time at a match with loaded guns, chances for an accident rise. I am a somewhat experienced competitor in other shooting sports, and am smart enough to not try to race when trying something new. I am also a firearms safety instructor, and thus have a higher threshold if only to avoid public embarrassment for doing something stupid myself... Firearms accidents can be reduced to two causes, ignorance and negligence. In this case (the OP question, not the cite in the quote), a jury might find the competitor ignorant and the host negligent. IANAL but to repeat, I train people in firearms safety. So my advice is to not suggest competitors may change style at will, the competitors must declare their style before the competition of their own free will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted June 10, 2020 Share Posted June 10, 2020 2 hours ago, Cypress Sun said: Is there anything, in your opinion, that isn't stoopid? See...here's a typical comment where a person focuses on a specific type of response from another person while ignoring those posts that don't support a preconceived perception. So if you tallied up and categorized all my responses perhaps then we can have a reasonable discussion...but you can't...and I can't...so where does that leave us???? I will say this, I'm not a big proponent of posting comments that do NOTHING other than put me on some kind of "Me Too" bandwagon...I mean...what's the point? I don't assume that posters want a "That a boy" pat on the back for their posts...or simply want to hear how great their idea is and avoid any opinion contrary to their own. So...there...is my Stoopid response to your question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty Devil Dale Posted June 10, 2020 Share Posted June 10, 2020 Seems to me like an over-the-top stage challenge. As a frequent MD, TO and or spotter, I much prefer to have people try out difficult new shooting skills without the pressure of a timer and without close proximity to the TO/CRO or other people. Firearms are inherently dangerous in inexperienced hands. Combining inexperience with timer pressure and a close audience is, IMHO, an unnecessary accident risk. I'd find another fun stage to substitute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted June 10, 2020 Share Posted June 10, 2020 12 hours ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said: There are ten revolver targets. With the shooter standing facing down range, Targets 1-5 are about 30 degrees to the shooters left, and targets 6-10 are about 30 degrees to shooters right. Rifles and shotguns can be however they want to be for this stage, but for the pistols the instructions would read something like, "From the pistol firing position, engage the targets in the following order, 1-10-2-9-3-8-4-5. [I call this a Driftwood Johnson Sweep, but the name has not caught on.] Shooters may engage pistol targets gunfighter style if they so desire. I am wondering about the "appropriateness" of the italicized line at the end. No one is required to shoot it gunfighter, but it gives the option to all shooters, specifically and only for this string. Is this something that is allowable in stage writing under the rules? I'm just wondering when the competitor is to shoot targets 6 & 7...? And given the state of the instructions, I'd not allow anyone to shoot it gunfighter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Equanimous Phil Posted June 10, 2020 Share Posted June 10, 2020 The offering of this opportunity implies somehow that it would be normal and reasonable to do so. That way you may end up with a shooter shooting GF style who never shot single handed with his weak hand before, maybe even not with his strong hand! Watching others doing it may encourages him to do it too, just because "it doesn't look that hard". First, you have to cope with shooting duelist, then double duelist and then you can try GF. On each level you dry fire first, then practice on the range without time pressure and then - after lot of practicing - you can do it at a match. The stage described in the OP sounds like fun to shoot GF, but it's definetly not a good stage to shoot GF for the first time! You should start with one as easy as possible with targets straight in front of you! CAS is a fun game, but one with real guns and real bullets! Equanimous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted June 10, 2020 Share Posted June 10, 2020 I really wish match directors would make a concentrated effort to write the cleanest, neatest possible stages over attempts to be cutesy. Write six stages of the simplest sweeps possible with a modicum of movement and I guarantee your shooters reaction will be positive when compared to complex sweeps and odd target placement. The stages that get the best reaction are NEVER the most complex or the most "interesting" or the most "challenging". The best reaction is when the instructions/ shooters options are clear - the sequence is straight forward and flowing and targets are placed to allow each shooter to run their own personal ragged edge. Swinging the front sight from one edge of the bay to the other and then back again is a needless sequence and does not lend itself to creating any kind of flow. Of course, as the match director, you can do anything you want and your shooters will have to shoot what you have set in front of them. But unfortunately, most shooters won't give you honest feedback - they will mumble meaningless pablum about "everyone shoots the same stages" and "If someone is willing to set the steel - I'll shoot whatever they have set". It's the Jurassic Park syndrome... Match Directors get so caught up in all the possibilities and thinking, "Is this something I can do?" - they never stop to consider, "Is this really something I should be doing?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tequila Shooter Posted June 10, 2020 Share Posted June 10, 2020 At my club's 5th Saturday match the stages aren't written, one shooter that doesn't write stages, picks a stage and "writes" it. When I did it the targets were in the same place but I changed the sequence enough to make the shooters think. Most enjoyed that little change and thought it was challenging enough. H. K. if your target placement and your sequence of fire is different than what is normally shot maybe that's enough, keeping it straightforward, different, and challenging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kloehr Posted June 10, 2020 Share Posted June 10, 2020 I slept on this question. Not on purpose, it just happened. So this morning I took a look at the Match Director Guide at: https://www.sassnet.com/Downloads/Match Dir Guide 103018.pdf I noted the following recommendations: Quote Design stages that promote action and quicker (rather than slower) target engagement. Don’t “choreograph” the stage with complex target sequences. Be careful to avoid designs that take shooters to the edge of safe firearm handling ... Design stages with the average shooter in mind These quotes from the guide suggest the stage overall may not be a good design, but returning to the actual question (GF option on a stage)... If there was such an option and it could be offered safely, doing so with a smaller number of targets (3 or 4) might help with making it safer. And more fun. Offering it on an "extreme" example might be less safe and less enjoyable overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rance - SASS # 54090 Posted June 10, 2020 Share Posted June 10, 2020 21 hours ago, Ace_of_Hearts said: Depending on the range setup this may cause splatter and even pieces of bullets to go places they shouldn't be going. If you are adding another 30 degrees you are in danger of sending large bullet fragments off in directions that you cannot control. This was the only negative I saw when reading the scenario.. Rance Thinkin' yer good to go on the rest of it.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Badly Posted June 10, 2020 Share Posted June 10, 2020 If people want flexibility in shooting style all they need to do is shoot B-western. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackalope Posted June 10, 2020 Share Posted June 10, 2020 21 hours ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said: ...Shooters may engage pistol targets gunfighter style if they so desire. I am wondering about the "appropriateness" of the italicized line at the end. No one is required to shoot it gunfighter, but it gives the option to all shooters, specifically and only for this string. Is this something that is allowable in stage writing under the rules? I'm curious to learn what Pale Wolf thinks about this part. Writers could get pretty "creative" if allowed to waive various SASS rules in their stage instructions. Maybe allowing a "shooting box" where the shooter is allowed to move with a cocked revolver, etc. Just wondering... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgun Play Posted June 10, 2020 Share Posted June 10, 2020 Going back to the OP , i’m Surprised that no one asked what happened to targets 6 and 7. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kloehr Posted June 10, 2020 Share Posted June 10, 2020 4 minutes ago, Morgun Play said: Going back to the OP , i’m Surprised that no one asked what happened to targets 6 and 7. Well, the OP did write "the instructions would read something like." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 Posted June 10, 2020 Author Share Posted June 10, 2020 23 minutes ago, John Kloehr said: Well, the OP did write "the instructions would read something like." As much as I agree with the above, all I can say is... D'oh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted June 10, 2020 Share Posted June 10, 2020 2 hours ago, Jackalope said: I'm curious to learn what Pale Wolf thinks about this part. Writers could get pretty "creative" if allowed to waive various SASS rules in their stage instructions. Maybe allowing a "shooting box" where the shooter is allowed to move with a cocked revolver, etc. Just wondering... Quote SASS® Affiliated Club Requirements • Conduct its matches in compliance with the SASS® Shooters handbooks ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene, SASS # 27489 Posted June 10, 2020 Share Posted June 10, 2020 3 hours ago, Mister Badly said: If people want flexibility in shooting style all they need to do is shoot B-western. Yeah, but then there is all that costuming stuff... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted June 10, 2020 Share Posted June 10, 2020 PLUS ONE too Barleycorn and Phantom and PaleWolf. My personal opine .... it's STUPID and contrary to SASS rules and UNSAFE for many shooters. I've shot many matches with a stage like that and for a practicing Gunfighter, it's fun. For a single handed shooter it very cumbersome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Badly Posted June 10, 2020 Share Posted June 10, 2020 4 hours ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said: Yeah, but then there is all that costuming stuff... Well, if we are stretching rules, the bling goes first! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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