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stef75

rossi 92 to run 44 specials at normal COAL

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Fellas if I try a a few rossi 92 44 mag at the dealer , is it safe to assume I will find one that runs 44 specials?

 

Is there a % likelihood for this.? Aka  will 75% be able to, 50% , 20% ?  Im not that interested in loading down 44 mag, or seating bullets way out, I want to be as cheap as possible with powder consumption :)

 

One way to find out I guess,...I have to plan a trip to the city anyway. 

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A-Zoom Snap Caps are your friends ,,,,,

Rossi 92s  can be made to run .44 spl. with very little effort ....

 

Jabez Cowboy

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A-zoom in the 44 special are a bit sharp on the round nose side of things

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When you test the Rossi, work the lever vigorously.  The action might feed rounds reliably when worked slowly but not quickly.

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4 hours ago, stef75 said:

I want to be as cheap as possible with powder consumption :)

 


44 Russian is even more frugal with powder consumption.
These won't pose a problem in revolvers, but most likely a problem in rifles unless they are modified.

The single most expense in reloading is the brass, followed by the bullet.
 

image.reloading.expense.cost.sfw.jpg

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What does a lb of your powder cost in USD?

Powder here,  is the cheapest part of the reloaded round.

OLG 

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30 minutes ago, bgavin said:

The single most expense in reloading is the brass, followed by the bullet.

 

You really need to divide that cost of the brass by some number as it is reusable. In pistol loads perhaps 25 times before it splits. In rifles an average of maybe 10 before lost, stepped on, split. So let's say 17 loadings. 

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1 hour ago, Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 said:

When you test the Rossi, work the lever vigorously.  The action might feed rounds reliably when worked slowly but not quickly.

+1 ... Yep ... That 92 needs the longest COL (plus cartridge guide shimming) to be able to run quickly. 

Anything works when you take your time but operating fast w/ short cartridges will sling cases right off the lifter and out of the gun. 

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Good luck finding a Rossi 92 out of the box that will feed anything at speed.  I'm sure they must be there but I've never seen it.

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54 minutes ago, Goody, SASS #26190 said:

 

You really need to divide that cost of the brass by some number as it is reusable. In pistol loads perhaps 25 times before it splits. In rifles an average of maybe 10 before lost, stepped on, split. So let's say 17 loadings. 

 

Interesting, I've  been using the same brass for over 20+ years. :huh:

 

OLG 

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I have loaded and shot 92's in 44 mag and 44 Special for many years .

I can tell you that the 92 is case length sensitive. 

And if you want to shoot 44 Special with any good outcome. 

You will definitely need to load them long .

I shoot Unique powder in my 44 Special when I shoot Smokeless powder. 

That is going to be your best bet for your money and cheap loading.

The 92 is a great rifle if you understand what you need to do to make the rifle work Successfully. 

So saith The Rooster 

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12 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

 

Interesting, I've  been using the same brass for over 20+ years. :huh:

 

OLG 

 I have no doubt that is the case. I was merely pointing out that brass is not a fixed cost like the consumables listed. You have to factor in some sort of reasonable divisor for number of reloadings you can expect for a piece of brass.

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Get Nate Kiowa Jones' video to set your '92 up right and it will do the job nicely.  

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Years ago, I had a Browning B92 .357 that would choke on anything shorter than a full-length .357, and like you, I wanted to use .38's because everything else was .38. I finally sold it to someone on here for a decent price and replaced it with two older pre-safety Rossi's with change left over. The Rossi's shoot 125 grain .38's without a hitch, and my daughter won many competitions with them before marriage, kids, and life intervened. I also have a Rossi .44 mag that gets out every now and then, but it's a bit touchy about specials, so I just use downloaded mags. The cost in extra powder is so minimal, like 30 cents per match, why worry about it?

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1 hour ago, Goody, SASS #26190 said:

 I have no doubt that is the case. I was merely pointing out that brass is not a fixed cost like the consumables listed. You have to factor in some sort of reasonable divisor for number of reloadings you can expect for a piece of brass.

 

A lot has to do with how you prepare the cases for loading.

I.E. Make sure you case cleaning solution has no Ammonia in it. ;)

OLG 

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Quote

Good luck finding a Rossi 92 out of the box that will feed anything at speed.  I'm sure they must be there but I've never seen it.

I've got 3 and one has close to 20,000 BP reloads down the bore. Runs Fast and Slow

The key is: cartridge COL and adjusting the right cartridge carrier for that particular reload.  In 2 of the Rossi's, only 454120 Long Colts and the 3rd is a 38 Spl modified to shoot 32-20's

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4 hours ago, twelve mile REB said:

Good luck finding a Rossi 92 out of the box that will feed anything at speed.  I'm sure they must be there but I've never seen it.

Right. And 66s and 73s always work great, AFTER an action job AND you figure exactly what your round OAL needs to be.

Or get a Marlin. They are perfect... except for the Dreaded Marlin Jam.:D

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9 minutes ago, Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770 said:

Right. And 66s and 73s always work great, AFTER an action job AND you figure exactly what your round OAL needs to be.

Or get a Marlin. They are perfect... except for the Dreaded Marlin Jam.:D

Tell ya what, out of the box, yes, I believe any of the three you dislike will out perform a Rossi 92 also just out of the box.   

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1 minute ago, twelve mile REB said:

Tell ya what, out of the box, yes, I believe any of the three you dislike will out perform a Rossi 92 also just out of the box.   

I don't dislike any of them. I'm just pointing out that all the rifles we use seem to need work out of the box. 

I've read too many posts where someone or another was extolling the virtues of his rifle, making it sound like THAT was the only rifle to use for CAS, while reading other posts where somebody else was having trouble with whichever rifle they have. 

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7 hours ago, Goody, SASS #26190 said:

 I have no doubt that is the case. I was merely pointing out that brass is not a fixed cost like the consumables listed. You have to factor in some sort of reasonable divisor for number of reloadings you can expect for a piece of brass.

I will point out the obvious:  brass can be reloaded.
However, to reload the brass, one must "have" the brass to reload.

For those wanting to buy their first round of brass, it is included in the cost table.
Simple math:  deduct the price of the brass from the rest of the consumables.

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3 hours ago, Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770 said:

I don't dislike any of them. I'm just pointing out that all the rifles we use seem to need work out of the box. 

I've read too many posts where someone or another was extolling the virtues of his rifle, making it sound like THAT was the only rifle to use for CAS, while reading other posts where somebody else was having trouble with whichever rifle they have. 

In the OP they were traveling to a dealer to run 44 spec though a Rossi 92 in 44 mag and expecting them, Rossi,  to work as advertised.  I did not expound on the wonders of anything else.  I have found Rossi, the few I've seen, that they are somewhat less highly finished and considerably rougher than some of the other bands mentioned.  Couple that with rounds that are shorter in an action that has a tendency to be picky about OAL.  Well as I said, Good Luck.  I didn't say or allude to that they couldn't be made to work.  Tell you what.  You buy a Rossi 92 any caliber, I'll buy a 73 probably in 38/40 cause I want one.  We can meet in Williams AZ  cause that's about half way or nearby and do a shootoff.  We can shoot most of the morning and record the results.  Then go to lunch have a couple of beers or other soft drink and discuss how silly this is.  Later we can take the ladies to dinner and plan to meet up at a shoot somewhere.     

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I have a Rossi 92 in .44 Magnum.  I also have a real Winchester that someone rebarreled to that caliber.   Neither gun works quite right with the Specials.   So I switched to downloaded Magnums.   Never a problem since.

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OK,  The thing to keep in mind is these modern straight wall pistol caliber ammo leverguns (all, not just the 92’s) are a lot like semi-auto handguns. There’s just some ammo they aren’t going to work well with.

All leveraction, pump action and semi-auto guns (long guns or handguns) are ammo length and bullet shape sensitive. Some more than other. For example, you don't think about it much if you are dealing with a rifle cal. like 3006, 308 or 223 and even 30-30. Those are bottleneck calibers. Bottlenecks always feed better than straightwall ammo, whether it is a rifle cal or a pistol cal. That's because you have a small diameter bullet going into a really big hole by comparison, the bottleneck chamber being much like a funnel.

     The original Winchester 92's were designed to work with bottleneck ammo in the 1.5" to 1.6" OAL with round nose flat point bullets. Ammo like 44-40, 38-40, 32-20 and 25-20.

   What that means is they may not work well with really long 357’s - 44mags or really short 38/44 specs.. The really long loads are too long to clear the cart  stop coming up or they tend to hit the top inside of the chamber before they make the turn into the chamber.

    The most common problem with the shorter specs is the gun will throw out, flip or stovepipe live rounds with the empty's. This is because the shorter spec coming on to the carrier from the tube can bounce forward enough that the rim is too close to the rim slots in the guides and when you lever it fast the carrier just catapults them up or out with the empty.

 

   Also, bullet shapes can make a difference. Bullets other than the round nosed flat point profile they were designed for can cause issues. The truncated cone or TC style bullets will work but can end up too long for some guns. As for SWC, the cutter bands tend to hang going in the chamber.

 

for specials what I have found to cycle best is elongated round nose flat point seated above the crimp groove and just crimped into the side of the bullet just above the lube groove. you don't have to use the crimp groove. This allows them to be loaded to a 1.5” OAL.  

 

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Saving $0.01 per load on powder equals about $1.20 for a six-stage match that costs $15 for entry + $20 for gas + $5 for snacks/drinks.  Why take a chance on having ammo that might result in problems and not enjoy your day?

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1 hour ago, Tom Bullweed said:

Saving $0.01 per load on powder equals about $1.20 for a six-stage match that costs $15 for entry + $20 for gas + $5 for snacks/drinks.  Why take a chance on having ammo that might result in problems and not enjoy your day?

 

Thats a great point but we all like to save money in our own areas and blow it in others. :) Besides as well as comps if you are pushing 5 figure quantities down range, the saving can actually be a couple hundred bucks a year.  Also  we are guarding the last cans of win-231, CFE pistol, WST,  and Win-244, etc like gold at the moment.  Our country is closing down Winchester and Hodgon imports , IMR is already gone. We make a line of our own powders and for the record export some for hodgon to rebrand but  it was nice to have the US powders on hand for versatility.

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6 hours ago, twelve mile REB said:

In the OP they were traveling to a dealer to run 44 spec though a Rossi 92 in 44 mag and expecting them, Rossi,  to work as advertised. 

 

That is pretty much the gist of it, yep. I think based on the comments its reasonable to expect I can find a 44 special at the right length and shape to work in a certain gun, but to expect any old load to automatically run through them it is unrealistic.

 

thanks to Steve and all other heavyweights on the thread for your input. At this stage I'm going to keep plugging away with 38/357 and give 44 some more thought.

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6 hours ago, stef75 said:

 

Thats a great point but we all like to save money in our own areas and blow it in others. :) Besides as well as comps if you are pushing 5 figure quantities down range, the saving can actually be a couple hundred bucks a year.  Also  we are guarding the last cans of win-231, CFE pistol, WST,  and Win-244, etc like gold at the moment.  Our country is closing down Winchester and Hodgon imports , IMR is already gone. We make a line of our own powders and for the record export some for hodgon to rebrand but  it was nice to have the US powders on hand for versatility.

If you are willing to tolerate thread drift, would you please provide whatever information you have regarding the import restrictions?  

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Not a problem. not sure whether they are import restrictions or businesses put off by the complexity/cost of getting it out of the US anymore. Since 9/11 things got tougher ,every few years there were further restrictions. I remember ordering things online in the day, now you need an import licence and agent in the US to export a packet of projectiles. Even individual gun parts are now classed as a firearms import.

 

Regards powders, I asked Winchester Australia reps last year if they brought in 700-x anymore and they said no, and advised me they were ceasing all Hodgon and Winchester powder imports, remaining stocks only for purchase . IMR powder has been gone a very long time, occasionally some would appear over the years. We do seem to have alliant on the shelves in abundance at the moment. Not sure off the top of my head who brings that in, whether its going to be constant supply. I san say a lot of bullseye, red dot, and 8lb cans of 2400 are selling fast at the moment!

 

 

 

 

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If you come across any Alliant Sport Pistol, give it a try with plastic coated bullets (coated with that great coating you sell us).  It is formulated for compatibility with the coating.  I find it burns clean and meters great.  I will switch to it for all my smokeless handgun loads after I use up my stocks of older powders.  BTW I like the imported powders Hodgdon rebrands and sells here.

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4 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Can you get Unique? 

OLG 

 

Just checked and looks like we still can. This link is a pretty good representation of whats available here at the moment.

 

https://www.rebelgunworks.com.au/collections/powder

 

Prices have jumped a bit here too. One of our major players just sent out a memo out to stores advisiing an 17% price increase for various imports. Not sure if those costs went up at your end, our end , or importers taking advantage of the current chaos( seems to be a lot of that happening right now)

 

 

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Other that damaged Brass My 92 in .45 colt will feed and fire with-out a bobble .44 specials loaded with SWC bullets. to length of 1.50...

I know because a shooter borrowing it Loaded with Rounds From the Blue Box and Not from the Red Box ....

He never Noticed anything,and neither did I until my brass was Returned to me by the Brass Picker ...

He commented it was the slickest smoothest functioning 92 he had shot in Years ...

 

Jabez Cowboy 

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 Little (evidently, very little) known fact:

 

isiQaBGl.jpg

 

l4yoGBml.jpg

 

I have a farmer/cattle raising buddy for whom I load .44 Specials and .44 Magnums to feed his '92 Rossi as he attempts to keep the hog population of Taylor Co., TX in check. I load the Keith SWC both in the Special and Magnum brass and having watched him mow down hogs with it, know it feeds both cartridges with equal aplomb. He prefers the Special loads because the magazine holds more rounds.

 

When I used to shoot CAS I shot a .44 Special. My load was a cast 170 gr. RNFP over 4.0 grs. of Red Dot (~1750 rounds per pound of powder)for 838 fps out of my carbine. 

 

 Cholla

 

 

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Thats pic is a good point. yep technically the cases have the same COAL but meant more on the usual load specs you see for them.,

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OK.  I'd like to wade in here.  Just for FUN.

 

FIRST .... PLUS ONE to Nate Kiowa Jones and to Cholla.  NEXT:  None .. NONE .. of the available rifles are CAS ready "Out of The Box."  Absolutely NONE.  They will ALL need something to play this game and to be user friendly.  PERIOD.  I only spent about 25 years building CAS rifles to learn this FACT.

 

IF you want to run an 1892 chambered in 44 Magnum .. Go For It.  THE CAVEAT:  FIRST thing you do after making that decision and partying with your hard earned cash, is contact Nat Kiowa Jones (Stevesgunz.com) and buy his DVD on tuning the '92.  Watch it two or three times before you start.  Once you rifle is set up (Springs, Polish, Firing Pins) it will run 44 Special all day long.  You will only have to do this ONCE.  Properly set up, a '92 can be very fast indeed and dead reliable.  Much more so than the after taunted FISH.

 

I don't suggest you should send him your rifle from The Land Down Under :rolleyes:

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