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1897 vs Coach


Whiskey Hicks

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I’ll start this off by saying a hinge action single-barrel was the first gun my stepdad ever put in my hands. 

 

The next year he got me a pump action Mossberg, you know with the loose jiggly pump handle. I became very familiar with that for years afterwards.

 

Nothing feels more cowboy to me than a coach gun, but is there any similarity to the 1897 and a Mossberg to where I could benefit in SASS?

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The 97 was the go-to shotgun for fast SASS shooters many years ago. I think the SxS now has the edge among the fast shooters.

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My opinion...

 

Prior "pump" shotgun experience does not translate into any kind of benefit utilizing a 1897 in cowboy. 

 

I do believe the 1897 is (again, my opinion) an easier/ quicker gun to become competent with in cowboy than a SxS (or lever).  

But noticible success with any action will take dedicated practice and reliable, well tuned firearms.

 

Full disclosure - I shoot a 97 (at a fair to mediocre skill level). 

 

But I honestly think based on shotgun tuners, availability of quality specimens and current target setting trends (targets set in pairs with close side to side distances/ even numbers of targets/ etc) - the SxS user (one who is willing to put in the time) has the better potential for success in CAS.

 

I've just shot a 97 for so long - I don't wish to change. 

If I was starting today - I probably would be a SxS shooter.

 

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I can't shoot either one of 'em very fast, but my times are slightly better with a '97. That said, I never shoot a '97 in CAS, only in Wild Bunch, and not even there anymore, since I bought a couple M12's last year. :mellow:

 

A double, I shoot a double. :D

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I believe the '97 to be easier to load/shoot for a newcomer to CAS because it allows for sloppier technique without time penalty to the shooter.

 

If you grab two shells from your belt, you can slap each one individually into the open ejection port without even looking.

 

With a SxS you have to be much more precise in placing your shells in the chamber.

 

The SxS will have faster split times regardless of how long it takes you to load. (Think poppers and clays.)

 

It will take longer to load one in the chamber and then one in the magazine of a '97 than it will to load two in the chambers of a SxS, providing you don't fumble with the SxS.

 

If you can grab four from your belt in one hand (and some can) then the '97 can be run equally or faster than a SxS in a four target delivery.  If you can't repeatedly and reliably grab four, you can have a really bad train wreck slowing you down even more.

 

Also, the SxS needs to be set up to where it will fully open in order to get both shells in the chamber quickly.

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Adding on to what Chief Rick said, there's also the shucking.  With a SxS you'll also have to practice shucking the used shells, not so with a '97.  What category are you shooting?  That could be something else to consider. 

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Nothing feels more cowboy to me than a coach gun, but is there any similarity to the 1897 and a Mossberg to where I could benefit in SASS?

 

 

 

In my opinion. NO. Not at all.

 

You are wanting to shoot cowboy.

You say nothing feel more cowboy to you than a coach gun.

Then why would you want to shoot anything else?

Only reason I could see is if you really enjoy the pump.

But I have seen more and more 97 shooters moving to the sxs. 

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I found out I was too fumble fingered to shoot a 97 fast, much better with a coach gun.   SCJ

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My experience has been that initially the 97 is easier to learn and get decent times with. When I purchased my 97 I was running four shots through it in just under six seconds within a couple of hours. My SKB took longer to master, but my times are better than with the 97, about four seconds for four shots. 
 

I still have a couple of 97s but they’re safe queens.

 

You don’t have to be able to pull four in one hand to be proficient with a 97. Two in each hand also works well or three in one hand and one in the other.

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If you shoot wild bunch, the experience with the Mossberg would be a benefit.  In that game we load 6 in the tube and let fly. Not so much for CAS.

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If you have to make up a target or have an odd number of targets, a 97 would be faster than a double.  Other than that, I think it comes down to the skill of the operator.    

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I think Badlands Bob hit the nail on the head.............".....it comes down to the skill of the operator".

 

If you take our fastest 97 shooters vs the fastest SxS shooters, vs the fastest 87 shooters,   you would have an all day

event of pure enjoyment.

Just my opinion, but on any given day, any of those fastest shooters could win the speed contest.

 

With the SxS:  your splits can be incredible.  I've timed a couple champions with SxS with splits of .15 and .17

Mostly, they are .20 or less.

 

With the 87:   The speedster can drop 2 shells down inside and basically hit the trigger when the lever closes to give a 'Rifleman' effect.

Indeed, the 87 can be fast.

 

With the 97:   Speed is no stranger to the 97 champs.  Various techniques give the shooter some fantastic speeds with beautiful

handling techniques.   Some right handers grab 4 with the left hand and feed over the top.   I know a super fast left hander who grabs

4 with the right hand and feeds directly into the port.

There are some right handers who grab 3 with the left and 1 with the right for shooting efficiency thats hard to beat.

And then there are some speed champs who can grab only 2 with the right hand and feed each shell into the port

for each shot.  Then back to the belt for 2 more and even get the 3rd shot off in less than 1 second after the 2nd shot.

 

All the above speedsters will stay within the 1 shot per second average whether it be with 4 or 6 shots.

 

Like Bob stated:  ".....it comes down to the skill of the operator".

 

Have a good day.

 

..........Widder

 

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Coach Guns are cool.

 

Pumps and levers are cool too - but in my minds eye sees the old west stagecoach riding west into the sunset amid a cloud of trail dust with an old salt sitting on top "Riding Shotgun" with a Side-By-Side scatter-gun.  Pumps didn't show up until the gay 90's after the wild west was just about tamed.

 

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Winchester 1897 shotgun the only way to go. Tried the Double (SxS) and found to be faster with 97. Still load the old Evil Roy way. 

Works very well unless you fumble. Waaa, Haa!!

 

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When I wore a younger mans clothes (3 sizes smaller) and chased the Brass Ring, I shot the '97.  I had 4.  Then I woke up one day and thought, "This thing ain't Cowboy.  Went to Hammer Double Coach Guns and never looked back.  Hammer Doubles are FUN!!

 

In the beginning, you're not going to be particularly "fast" with anything.  Fast takes lots and lots of PRACTICE.  I shoot with folks can run a Hammer Double FAST.  A "Train Wreck" with anything is still a train wreck.  Double  guns ROCK

 

Auto Correct is annoying

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Check out Longhunter's videos on YouTube.  He makes a 97 or a sxs look smooth, fast and fun.  You can also watch videos by Widder and Dutch Stevens.   I enjoy both, but if I had to pick one, it would be the 97.

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For years the 97's had the edge when shooting at a number of clubs. In the 90's it was fairly common to stage the long guns in vertical racks. The 97 could be loaded as it was being pointed down range where as the double had to be turned over to load then brought back to level. So, there was a little time savings with the 97's. 

    I would say by the early 2000's the trend was to stage the long guns horizontal pointed down range. Now both can be loaded on the way up equally fast. By then the top shooter were becoming much more concerned with longevity of their guns and the old 97's (last one made in 1957) with their multiple moving parts were prone to breaking down. With most anything mechanical the more moving parts you have the more likely they fail. for that reason most of the top 97 guys had at least 3, one main, a spare and a parts gun. That's about the time the Chinese Winchesters showed up.. For the most part the QC was not that great but they certainly were better than many of the 100 year old Wins.

   Now it seems the trend is the top guys are moving toward the single trigger SXS's. There seem to be a learning curve in that the low end single trigger guns were not consistently reliable. Some would shoot both barrels or drop to just one. So, if the top shooter is using a double most likely it's a Browning BSS or SKB.  They hardly ever break and the have a 97 ish trigger. Best of both worlds

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Shoot what brings a smile to your face and makes you happy. If you are not having fun you are doing this wrong.

 

 For the vast majority of shooters 80 to 90% of their stage times consist of the time inbetween shooting each firearm. It matters not one iota how fast you can dump 10 rounds if you are spending too much time between firearms. Smooth efficient transitions and economy of motion are the key to winning in this game. Until you have transitions down pat and are consistently shooting in the top 5% of your club it matters very little which guns you shoot as long as they function properly and are reliable.

 

National and World championships have been won with just about every combination of calibers, barrel lengths and shooting styles you can think of. The difference between those that win and every body else is the amount of practice that a shooter puts into this game. The top 1% probably shoot more rounds in a week than most shooters do 6 months. They also spend more time dry firing and practising transitions than most shooters do in a year.

 

Myself I am way too busy having fun shooting new and interesting firearms. This is a pastime that provides some stress relief and brings a smile to my face. 

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I'm new to CAS, but have some hours of competition under my belt. My sense at this point...

 

I would be faster with a '97 in stock configuration than with a stock SxS. This is intuitively obvious.

 

Tuning a '97 will not speed it up a lot. (personal opinion, please feel free to disagree!)

 

Tuning a SxS will speed it up a lot if (and only if) you practice to take advantage of the tuneup.

 

Thus my opinion is that the SxS can be faster that the '97.

 

Of the possible SxS tuneups (that I know), I rate them (smaller number is more important, value 1 to 10)as:

- Will it break open easily (thumb the lever and it simply falls open) (value = 1)

- Can it shuck shells (just polish the chambers) (value = 2)

- Can you reload easily (bevel chamber entry) (value = 8)

- is the trigger smooth (polishing, amount of creep, clean break) (value = 10)

 

For this opinion, I am comparing a fully slicked up SxS I shot (loaned) to a cheap one my lady has.

- Breaking her's open is a flat out struggle compared to the simple slicked operation

- If the shells don't shuck out, pluck them and continue, but that does take a little time.

- If you can't stick two shells in the chambers with one hand in one motion, practice some more; and you can't really bevel that much or the extractors might not work afterwards or the firing pin will no longer reach the primers; and dropping a round on the ground costs a lot more time

- It's a freaking shotgun pointed at a close plate, pull the trigger already; Try the same plate at 100 yards with a stock SKS trigger and tell me you missed the SxS shot because the trigger was gritty and had creep and the break wasn't clean; no, that is not why you missed the shot

 

That all said, I want to be able to open my lady's SxS easily, and I'll polish the chambers, and clean up the trigger. I'll skip the chamber bevel but will polish the trigger just because it is easy and improves the simple pleasure of shooting it; And if I screw up the bevel, that cheap gun will be worthless; And I will probably still buy a Stoeger

 

So all that said, and with limited experience with the '97 (experience with other pumps, I shoot a Maverick 88 in other competitions), I think the '97 can be fast, I do think the SxS can be faster in experienced hands. It will take a few years for me to prove it though.

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1 hour ago, Sedalia Dave said:

Shoot what brings a smile to your face and makes you happy. If you are not having fun you are doing this wrong.

Quoting because the trophy for your post was not big enough, and you said what I meant in far fewer words.

 

The SxS works for my goals, and those goals are long-term. But I have nothing against the '97 and would shoot it tomorrow if it was in my hands,

 

Either gun does not really matter in this sport, just as long as you enjoy the day and try to do better than the last time (if you want to, that is).

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19 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

All I can say is...what kinda competition would anyone choose to shoot a Maverick in?

 

:wacko:

 

 

3 Gun. And yes, it pounds my shoulder, and I would rather have a tang than cross-bolt safety. But other than that, just as solid and reliable and accurate as a Mossburg 500. It just weighs less and kicks like a mule. I bought it in case of a rabid bear on my mountain and so I'm shooting what I have. Which is good, in case I actually have to use it.

 

But TBH, I have my eye on a Mossburg semi-automatic 930 (aka goose gun). But have not missed a shot yet with the 88.

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42 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

......... I think the '97 can be fast, I do think the SxS can be faster in experienced hands. It will take a few years for me to prove it though.

 

Whew.... running the SxS faster than the 97 would be commendable.

But I gotta ask, just how fast do you want to run that baby?

 

I see you live in TN.   What clubs will you be shooting Cowboy competition?

My home club is the Oak Ridge Outlaws in Oak Ridge.

I also will be shooting at Mystery Dog Ranch and Cleveland this summer, mixed in with a couple of trips to Wartrace.

 

..........Widder

 

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8 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

Whew.... running the SxS faster than the 97 would be commendable.

But I gotta ask, just how fast do you want to run that baby?

 

I see you live in TN.   What clubs will you be shooting Cowboy competition?

My home club is the Oak Ridge Outlaws in Oak Ridge.

I also will be shooting at Mystery Dog Ranch and Cleveland this summer, mixed in with a couple of trips to Wartrace.

 

..........Widder

 

Come on now Widderborg...we allllllll know that 97's suck compared to a SxS...they're soooooooo slow.

 

:mellow:

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3 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

My home club is the Oak Ridge Outlaws in Oak Ridge.

Might meet you next month. Wanted to be there Sunday (tomorrow) for RO1 with TN Tombstone, but I will be training people for carry permits instead (don't ask where, I'm not advertising on this forum). And without RO1, I don't want to shoot the following Saturday. And I still don't have a rifle so would have to borrow. And the SxS I have sucks, so I want to bring it and run it anyway and ask for advice on how to improve it. But as stated above, I will replace it anyway.

 

And as to speed out of the gate in this sport... I want a clean stage in under  a minute to start with. Think I can do it? Maybe just one of the stages on my first day? Clean. Under a minute. With a borrowed rifle, a crap SxS, and two excellent but new to me revolvers.

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17 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

Whew.... running the SxS faster than the 97 would be commendable.

But I gotta ask, just how fast do you want to run that baby?

 

I see you live in TN.   What clubs will you be shooting Cowboy competition?

My home club is the Oak Ridge Outlaws in Oak Ridge.

I also will be shooting at Mystery Dog Ranch and Cleveland this summer, mixed in with a couple of trips to Wartrace.

 

..........Widder

 

 

Now Widder; you trying to give the boy a complex or something.  Iff'n he sees with his own eyes what you Tennessee boys can do with a 97 he'll be scarred for life.  :P :D

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Just now, Sedalia Dave said:

 

Now Widder; you trying to give the boy a complex or something.  Iff'n he sees with his own eyes what you Tennessee boys can do with a 97 he'll be scarred for life. 

Considering I can run an 88, I might fit right in. And I have a nice hat too. Maybe too fancy for Tennessee boys, but it is nice.

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In the hands of someone that has put in the time and effort any shotgun can be fast.  Watching Deuce Stevens Lassiter  or Smokestack run an 87. Widder, or Lead Dispenser run a 97, or T-Bone opening and cocking a hammered double with a wave of his hand is awe inspiring to say the least.

 

Below is Widder demonstrating his 97 technique. 

 

 

 

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they make it look easy because the practice a lot , pick one and do that - you will be proficient if not faster than you are now and you will outshoot me who has not done what i suggested , 

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Hey Sedalia Dave, 

That sure is a handsome feller.  He should be one of them guitar playin/singin Cowboy movie stars....... ;)

 

Actually, that run would place 3rd at the last couple years TN State speed SG side match..... :o

Heck, even Red Knee could beat that...... :D

 

..........Widder

 

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For several years when I first started in Cowboy action shooting (SASS was still in the future), the fastest shooters were using doubles.  The '97 didn't even come close.  The simply loading technique at the time for the '97 was dump one in the chamber, close, and push the 2nd in the magazine.  That involved a lot of turning the gun nearly upside down and ate time like a starving dog!  Then, along comes a couple new shooters, Tequila and Evil Roy, (at least they were the first I saw to perfect the technique), using a '97 and loading singly over the top directly into the ejection port.  Never bothering to put the 2nd shell in the magazine.  Huge time savings... rivaling mediocre double shooters everywhere.  Then came grab 3 and grab 4 shooters, another time savings, and the gap closed substantially between '97 and double users.

 

As with anything else, practice makes one better.  IMO, it all depends on where you lay on the "manual dexterity" scale.  And what technique you use, It's always been easier for me to handle two shells, load and shuck than probably 99% of like folks on the amount of practice done.  IOWs, I can be faster than 99% of shooters that practice the same amount of time as I do, with either shotgun.  And since outside of WB, I've used a '97 in a match exactly ONE time, I can tell ya, I'm much faster with a double.

 

In my limited experience, I'd say that I see more people fumbling and dropping rounds trying to go fast with the '97 than with a well operating double.   But, have seen folks that progressively practice their technique to gain speed do well with either action.

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18 minutes ago, Hendo said:

All I gather from watching Widder's videos is that he can cycle a 97 faster than most sewing machines can thread a stitch.

 

Hendo, 

if you won't tell anyone, I'll share my secret:   I hold my breath and imagine all them targets are 6' rattlesnakes coming at me.

;)

 

p.s. - one of those 2 things is true.

 

..........Widder

 

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