Sergeant Duroc Posted May 31, 2020 Share Posted May 31, 2020 I need help. My 73 rifle has been sitting in the safe since the first week of March. We have some scheduled matches in our area in a few weeks so I thought I better get practicing. It functioned perfectly in March. Today, it is giving me fits. Things go fine for 8-14 rounds and then a round loads, but the lever can't be closed and it seems "locked". I pull the round out and it takes off again. I thought it might be the ammo, but I wanted to isolate if it was the ammo or gun and the rounds giving me fits worked in a later group. I took the gun completely down and ultrasonic cleaned it, oiled it and put it back together. Still does it. Never had this issue before. Advice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted May 31, 2020 Share Posted May 31, 2020 Get a case gauge and ck your ammo. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Duroc Posted May 31, 2020 Author Share Posted May 31, 2020 22 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said: Get a case gauge and ck your ammo. OLG Well, you proved it's a waste of time to spin your bullets in a pistol to check them. I did find a couple that wouldn't fit in the case gauge. I loaded the couple in the rifle that wouldn't fit in the case gauge and they fed ok other than one. It seemed like when it locked up the bullet was fully chambered, but maybe not quite the case (pun intended). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lefty Wheeler Posted May 31, 2020 Share Posted May 31, 2020 Sounds like your carrier is falling. When you have a magazine full of ammo the pressure is helping hold it up. Your right lever spring may be the issue and need to be a little tighter or possibly looser. This is assuming the lever won't close when fully open. Not clear in OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD Trampas, SASS # 55781 Posted May 31, 2020 Share Posted May 31, 2020 I'm no gunsmith and I know it, LOL, As much as you practice at home plus dry firing I presume thru the winter from what I have heard, you might need some new springs, everything is worn out and the springs are streched and maybe the rifle is a little out of time, I'm guessing is all, like I said no gunsmith here but I know you practice alot and dry firing so things do wear out. Just a thought, hope you get it figured out. All for now JD Trampas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Graybeard Posted May 31, 2020 Share Posted May 31, 2020 I think it’s John Wesley Hardin getting even... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Duroc Posted June 1, 2020 Author Share Posted June 1, 2020 46 minutes ago, JD Trampas, SASS # 55781 said: I'm no gunsmith and I know it, LOL, As much as you practice at home plus dry firing I presume thru the winter from what I have heard, you might need some new springs, everything is worn out and the springs are streched and maybe the rifle is a little out of time, I'm guessing is all, like I said no gunsmith here but I know you practice alot and dry firing so things do wear out. Just a thought, hope you get it figured out. All for now JD Trampas JD- Great to hear from you. You may be on to something. I took a new job last July and I haven't worked the guns like I'm accustomed. I love CAS, but it sure took a backseat to my new gig this past year. Maybe I need to race um a little harder like they are used to?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 1 hour ago, Sergeant Duroc said: Well, you proved it's a waste of time to spin your bullets in a pistol to check them. I did find a couple that wouldn't fit in the case gauge. I loaded the couple in the rifle that wouldn't fit in the case gauge and they fed ok other than one. It seemed like when it locked up the bullet was fully chambered, but maybe not quite the case (pun intended). Have you ck'd ALL of the screws for tightness? Have you tried factory ammo? OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Duroc Posted June 1, 2020 Author Share Posted June 1, 2020 11 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said: Have you ck'd ALL of the screws for tightness? Have you tried factory ammo? OLG Yes, I've tightened all the screws. I have not tried factory. That would be one way to isolate a variable. I gauged several last night and will test tonight as well. Thanks for the ideas... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 The 73 toggle action is a WONDERMENT of almost complete visibility if you are willing to take off the right side side plate, and hold the left plate in place (a little masking tape works). "All things will be revealed to those who seek" Once the action is open and tipped to the left side, get a dummy round and feed it through a cycle, slowly. Where the action would give you the locked feeling, watch the parts that are moving VERY CLOSELY. Repeat until you see where the hangup could occur. If you have had an Out of Battery discharge (felt by a slap the your hand that transmits back through the lever), then you could have a bent lever or lifter arm. If you have damage to the extractor nose or cartridge support tab, or crud in the slots into which those parts slide into in the breech face of the barrel, you would have interference just before the action being completely into battery. If you have a dirty chamber you could also have interference right at bolt closing. If you are shooting .357 cartridges now and have shot .38 special rounds before, you could have carbon buildup at front of chamber (bell a .357 empty case enough to barely enter chamber, then push it forward with bolt to shave the carbon out of the chamber). Once you inspect with eagle eyes, and THINK about what the action and ammunition is doing, it should be pretty clear what is causing the problem. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty Devil Dale Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 4 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said: The 73 toggle action is a WONDERMENT of almost complete visibility if you are willing to take off the right side side plate, and hold the left plate in place (a little masking tape works). "All things will be revealed to those who seek" Once the action is open and tipped to the left side, get a dummy round and feed it through a cycle, slowly. Where the action would give you the locked feeling, watch the parts that are moving VERY CLOSELY. Repeat until you see where the hangup could occur. If you have had an Out of Battery discharge (felt by a slap the your hand that transmits back through the lever), then you could have a bent lever or lifter arm. If you have damage to the extractor nose or cartridge support tab, or crud in the slots into which those parts slide into in the breech face of the barrel, you would have interference just before the action being completely into battery. If you have a dirty chamber you could also have interference right at bolt closing. If you are shooting .357 cartridges now and have shot .38 special rounds before, you could have carbon buildup at front of chamber (bell a .357 empty case enough to barely enter chamber, then push it forward with bolt to shave the carbon out of the chamber). Once you inspect with eagle eyes, and THINK about what the action and ammunition is doing, it should be pretty clear what is causing the problem. Good luck, GJ Thanks for a great review. Can you explain what is the actual function of the nose portion of the extractor, forward of the actual extractor tooth? Is its form critical to applying downward pressure? What happens if you just file it off shorter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 Take a borescope and inspect the chamber. It is possible that you have some foreign debris stuck in there. Possibly even part of a case mouth. You can also do a chamber case and to check for the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 1 hour ago, Dusty Devil Dale said: Can you explain what is the actual function of the nose portion of the extractor, forward of the actual extractor tooth? Is its form critical to applying downward pressure? What happens if you just file it off shorter? I'm not sure the extractor nose has any real function. I file some off to taper edges and remove burrs, but have never removed the nose entirely. Since the 73 (and other toggle guns) is NOT a positive capture feed (rim under the extractor during feeding), I've always thought some bevel is warranted to help guide the cartridge rim down (and extractor hook up) to ensure the round chambers rather than blocks with a square nose of extractor jammed into the cartridge base. I don't like it if the nose lifts the extractor off the rim during final movement to battery (by nose camming up the slope of the extractor nose cut in barrel face. Seems that extraction has got to be more positive if the rim already hooked by extractor when the bolt starts backward. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
"Big Boston" Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 Ammo has been referenced, and I'd like to add a bit on that topic. Cartridge length is important, as is bullet shape. ideally the bullet should have a large flat meplat, this helps keep the stack of cartridges straight in the tube, and if the cartridge still in the tube is straight, the carrier has an easier time pushing it back in. Then there is cartridge length, and my preference is to have the cartridge OAL at 1.5" The ammo works better if it is smooth, case mouth crimped into the bullet enough so it passes the fingernail test. On my '66 when my ladle was loose, that was not good. When the tab broke, that was even worse. The lifter arm is fairly easily bent if the action is forced when jammed. This affects timing. A timing quick check is to see if the carrier is flush with the bottom of the action when the lever is closed, next is to load a dummy round and cycle slowly, the rim should not contact any part of the bolt. I like the write-up that Pioneer has on their site; http://www.pioneergunworks.com/technical-info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Bill Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 Have you cleaned the extractor, it can gum up. If you reload make 10 dummy rounds, make sure you have spent primers loaded.now cycle at you normal speed. As mentioned earlier AOL plays factor. Mine is between 2.45 and 1.47. Just below the groove with roll crimp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudflat Mike, SASS #20904 Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 My 73 started doing the same thing a few years ago-------right after I started using 231 in my .38 loads. It turns out that unburned powder flakes would stick in the chamber and occasionally build up enough to not allow the next loaded round to fully chamber. Went back to Clays and the problem dissapeared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 49 minutes ago, Mudflat Mike, SASS #20904 said: My 73 started doing the same thing a few years ago-------right after I started using 231 in my .38 loads. It turns out that unburned powder flakes would stick in the chamber and occasionally build up enough to not allow the next loaded round to fully chamber. Went back to Clays and the problem dissapeared. What was the load? I've used 231 for decades, and never had that issue. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudflat Mike, SASS #20904 Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 1 hour ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said: What was the load? I've used 231 for decades, and never had that issue. OLG I've used it forever in 45ACP, but it sure didn't work in my 38's, and I don't remember (nor want to) the exact load, but I always use 130gr slugs. It gave me so much grief that I hate even thinking about it., Really blew a regional shoot for me Actually, I just checked my notes and I probably used 3.9 of 231 with a 130 gr slug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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