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English Stranger, SASS 42090

Clarification on gunfighter

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I need clarification, went to my first match after a few years away from SASS and was going to shoot:

Age: Senior

Category: Frontiersman

Shooting Style: Gunfighter

I was told if I wanted to shoot style Gunfighter it had to be just gunfighter, no category, no age

So I reread the rules (Page 5)

aa3.jpg

 

So I understand Gunfighter is just Gunfighter no age no category. Then I read CATEGORY MATRIX (page 10)

image.thumb.png.b7d316809c4433666be0ec58793f47d1.png

 

I plainly see S.A.S.S.’s handbook saying “SENIOR” gunfighter and better yet “SENIOR, FRONTIER CARTRIDGE” gunfighter. Guessing there is a paradox in the rules, page 5 said no “age base” for gunfighter, but page 10 shows an “age base”and some categoiess, so I am asking for clarification Can you shoot an age and category when shooting the stile gunfighter? Even B-Western said  “Revolvers may be shot in any SASS legal shooting style, at the shooters discretion.”  (page 8) does that include gunfighter stile?

 

Opinions are one thing, I’d like clarification from S.A.S.S.

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Gunfighter is not allowed in Frontiersman

 

PG 10:

Quote

Revolvers must be shot Duelist or Double Duelist style. See Duelist description 


for required shooting technique.

 

Local clubs can and oftentimes overrule.

 

For example, some of us are going to shoot Classic Cowboy Gunfighter this summer :D

 

 

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You're missing the "may"  be offered. It is at the Match Director's discretion. 

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12 minutes ago, Tyrel Cody said:

Revolvers must be shot Duelist or Double Duelist style. See Duelist description 


for required shooting technique.

 

But I do shoot Double Duelist and you can shoot Double Duelist as a gunfighter, so I'm fulfilling all the requirements of both. and not going out of either guidelines.

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23 minutes ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

It isn't an Official SASS Category, some clubs offer non-official categories others don't. 

 

Randy

What are the official categories then?

 

 

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6 minutes ago, English Stranger, SASS 42090 said:

What are the official categories then?

 

 

Shooters Handbook pg 5-10

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9 minutes ago, English Stranger, SASS 42090 said:

 

But I do shoot Double Duelist and you can shoot Double Duelist as a gunfighter, so I'm fulfilling all the requirements of both. and not going out of either guidelines.

 

You can shoot DD as a gunfighter, but as a DD you cannot have two loaded guns out of the holster at the same time.

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13 minutes ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

You can shoot DD as a gunfighter, but as a DD you cannot have two loaded guns out of the holster at the same time.

 

and...? if I shoot DD am entitled to say gunfighter

But you are missing the point SASS handbook said (NO AGE) as a gunfighter but then they show age groups. So is it no age or yea age?

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21 minutes ago, Boulder Canyon Bob# 32052L said:

Shooters Handbook pg 5-10

Page 8:

B-Western/Lady B-Western Category

- Revolvers may be shot in any SASS legal shooting style, at the shooters discretion.

 

Any SASS legal shooting style so can you shoot B-Western gunfighter?

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2 hours ago, English Stranger, SASS 42090 said:

Page 8:

B-Western/Lady B-Western Category

- Revolvers may be shot in any SASS legal shooting style, at the shooters discretion.

 

Any SASS legal shooting style so can you shoot B-Western gunfighter?

Yes you may!

 

Do be aware there are other firearms rules concerning your rifle selection particular to B Western!

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recently someone posted this unofficial matrix.  I find it helpful.

 

 

 

SASS Category Matrix v2.5.pdf

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1 minute ago, English Stranger, SASS 42090 said:

 

and...? if I shoot DD am entitled to say gunfighter

But you are missing the point SASS handbook said (NO AGE) as a gunfighter but then they show age groups. So is it no age or yea age?

 

What page 5 is saying:

Senior Category, shooting styles allowed: Traditional (two handed), Duelist, Double Dueleist(one loaded out of holster at a time)

 

What page 10 is saying:

Gunfighter Category: can be further extended by age into more categories -> Senior Gunfighter Category,  Silver Senior Gunfighter Category.

 

 

In simpler terms,

 

If you sign up to shoot the "Senior" Category, you cannot shoot gunfighter style(only Traditional, Duelist, Double Duelist/one loaded out of holster at a time).

 

If you sign up for "Senior Gunfighter" Category, you can only shoot gunfighter style(or double duelist).

 

I've never seen a complete list of official categories. The closest is on the match application for EOT, but you have to extrapolate it out.

 

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2 minutes ago, Captain Clark said:

Yes you may!

That is the trouble, some say you can't they show it in the hand book. Some don't say anything and then say no. where is the flow chart?

 

Frontiersman Rules:

- Any main match percussion revolver with fixed sights. - Revolvers must be shot Duelist or Double Duelist style. 

Gunfighter can be shot Double Duelist

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You asked about B Western and I replied to that.

you can shoot B Western revolvers whatever shooting style you choose, as well as propellant type for every stage if you so desire. ;)

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7 minutes ago, T-Square said:

recently someone posted this unofficial matrix.  I find it helpful.

 

 

 

SASS Category Matrix v2.5.pdf 163.44 kB · 2 downloads

 

Yes unofficial, it don't show Lady Senior Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter anywhere and the handbook said that is a category. 

 

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4 minutes ago, English Stranger, SASS 42090 said:

That is the trouble, some say you can't they show it in the hand book. Some don't say anything and then say no. where is the flow chart?

 

Frontiersman Rules:

- Any main match percussion revolver with fixed sights. - Revolvers must be shot Duelist or Double Duelist style. 

Gunfighter can be shot Double Duelist

 

Howdy,

Just a slight change in category is all you need.  Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter will cover whatever you would like to do.  Cap and Ball pistols are legal in all categories, and then you'll only be shooting against other smoky, sooty, pards.

 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, English Stranger, SASS 42090 said:

That is the trouble, some say you can't they show it in the hand book. Some don't say anything and then say no. where is the flow chart?

 

Frontiersman Rules:

- Any main match percussion revolver with fixed sights. - Revolvers must be shot Duelist or Double Duelist style. 

Gunfighter can be shot Double Duelist

 

Yes, Gunfighter can be shot Double Duelist, but not vice versa. Double Duelist can't have two loaded guns out of the holsters at the same. 

 

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13 minutes ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

What page 5 is saying:

Senior Category, shooting styles allowed: Traditional (two handed), Duelist, Double Dueleist(one loaded out of holster at a time)

Page 5 said AGE BASED CATEGORIES - any style EXCEPT  Gunfighter

So how does page 10 say Lady Senior (age based) Gunfighter? when before they said no age base?

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2 minutes ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

Yes, Gunfighter can be shot Double Duelist, but not vice versa. Double Duelist can't have two loaded guns out of the holsters at the same. 

 

I know that and I shoot Duelist, Double. So you are saying you can't shoot Duelist, Double in Gunfighter?

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15 minutes ago, English Stranger, SASS 42090 said:

Page 5 said AGE BASED CATEGORIES - any style EXCEPT  Gunfighter

So how does page 10 say Lady Senior (age based) Gunfighter? when before they said no age base?

 

Ok, I don't think you understand the difference between an age based category and a shooting style based category They are seperate..

 

Age based Categories:

Buckaroo/Buckarette,

Junior Boy/Junior Girl,

Wrangler/Lady Wrangler,

Forty-Niner/Lady Forty-Niner,

Senior/Lady Senior,

Silver Senior/Lady Silver Senior,

Elder Statesman/Grand Dame,

Cattle Baron/Cattle Baroness,

El Patron/La Patrona,

El Rey/Lady El Rey

 

Shooting Style based Categories:

Duelist

Gunfighter

 

 

You have to look at them separately and at face value.

 

Senior Gunfighter/Lady Senior Gunfighter is a shooting style category with an age group applied; so you follow the shooting style rules.

 

 

 

12 minutes ago, English Stranger, SASS 42090 said:

I know that and I shoot Duelist, Double. So you are saying you can't shoot Duelist, Double in Gunfighter?

No I'm not.

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There is no official Frontiersman Gunfighter category. You my shoot Duelist “style” or Double Duelist “style” but you may not shoot Gunfighter “style” in Frontiersman. In other words, you may NOT have two loaded pistols out of the holsters at the same time. 

 

Senior category, in and of itself, is an age based category. Match directors may offer other sub-categories that incorporate styles and rules with a “Senior” designation.

 

You may shoot “Gunfighter” style in B Western, but it is still just B Western.

 

You may shoot “Gunfighter” style in the Gunfighter category and in Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter.

 

In all other official categories, you must not draw a second loaded pistol until the first pistol is emptied or holstered.

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18 minutes ago, English Stranger, SASS 42090 said:

I know that and I shoot Duelist, Double. So you are saying you can't shoot Duelist, Double in Gunfighter?

You cannot shoot Duelist in the gunfighter category, you can shoot Double duelist in gunfighter. Gunfighter you must shoot 5 shots with left hand and five shots with right hand.

kR

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When shooting in any of the Gunfighter categories you have the option of shooting either Gunfighter or Double Duelist style.  When shooting Duelist category you have the option of shooting either Duelist or Double Duelist style.

The B Western category is the only category that you could shoot two handed on one stage, duelist on the next stage, and shoot gunfighter on the third stage.

 

Good luck, 

Barry Sloe 

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4 minutes ago, Tyrel Cody said:

True that is where I need to understand what the book saids:

(Page 5)

AGE BASED CATEGORIES

Age based categories are offered to allow all participants to compete amongst their peers.

Age based categories carry the following guidelines: -

May use any main match revolver. - Revolvers may be shot in any SASS legal shooting style – EXCEPT Gunfighter.

 

Age based Categories:

Buckaroo/Buckarette, Junior Boy/Junior Girl, Wrangler/Lady Wrangler, Forty-Niner/Lady Forty-Niner, Senior/Lady Senior,

Silver Senior/Lady Silver Senior, Elder Statesman/Grand Dame, Cattle Baron/Cattle Baroness, El Patron/La Patrona, El Rey/Lady El Rey

 

So if I wanted to shoot Silver Senior (yes I'm old) I could shoot  Duelist but not Silver Senior Gunfighter or Silver Senior Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter, because it is an age base?

 

4 minutes ago, Tyrel Cody said:

Ok, I don't think you understand the difference between an age based category and a shooting style based category They are seperate..

 

Age based Categories:

Buckaroo/Buckarette,

Junior Boy/Junior Girl,

Wrangler/Lady Wrangler,

Forty-Niner/Lady Forty-Niner,

Senior/Lady Senior,

Silver Senior/Lady Silver Senior,

Elder Statesman/Grand Dame,

Cattle Baron/Cattle Baroness,

El Patron/La Patrona,

El Rey/Lady El Rey

 

Shooting Style based Categories:

Duelist

Gunfighter

 

 

You have to look at them separately and at face value.

 

Senior Gunfighter/Lady Senior Gunfighter is a shooting style category with an age group applied; so you follow the shooting style rules.

 

 

 

No I'm not.

 

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All SASS categories fall into one of three root categories

 

1. Age 

These categories are age based only. Fourty Niner, Senior, Silver Senior, are examples of age based categories. All age based ONLY categories may be shot any style except gunfighter. None of the age based only categories can be further sub divided.

 

2. Costume

Classic Cowboy and B-Western are Costume categories. Each category has its own specific rules for dress and shooting style. The two categories are not normally sub divided by age.

 

3. Shooting Style 

these categories are first and foremost governed by shooting style. Duelist, Frontiersman, and Gunfighter are shooting style based categories. In shooting style based categories there is NO requirement to sub divide by age. However many match directors do further sub divide these categories based on age. 

 

So to answer your question, you first have to determine if the category is Age based, Costume based, or shooting style based. easiest way to do this is to follow this flow.

 

1. Is the category B-Western or Classic Cowboy?

          Yes. You are in a costume category, Go to 4.

           No go to 2. 

 

2. Does the description of the category contain a shooting style? (Duelist, Frontiersman, or Gunfighter.)

           Yes this is a shooting style category that may or may not be further divided. Go to 4. 

            No go to 3.

 

3. You are in an Age based only category. Go to 4 

 

4. Does the category name contain Frontiersman, or Frontier Cartridge?

            Yes. Then you may only shoot black powder in this category.

             No. You may use smokeless or Black powder.

 

For Example:

Senior is an age based category.

Cowboy is an age based category.

Duelist is a Shooting Style category

Gunfighter is a Shooting Style category.

Senior Duelist is a Shooting Style category.

Silver Senior Gunfighter is a Shooting Style category.

Senior Frontiersman is a Shooting Style category.

Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter is a Shooting style category that requires the use of Black powder in all firearms.

 

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3 minutes ago, English Stranger, SASS 42090 said:

True that is where I need to understand what the book saids:

(Page 5)

AGE BASED CATEGORIES

Age based categories are offered to allow all participants to compete amongst their peers.

Age based categories carry the following guidelines: -

May use any main match revolver. - Revolvers may be shot in any SASS legal shooting style – EXCEPT Gunfighter.

 

Age based Categories:

Buckaroo/Buckarette, Junior Boy/Junior Girl, Wrangler/Lady Wrangler, Forty-Niner/Lady Forty-Niner, Senior/Lady Senior,

Silver Senior/Lady Silver Senior, Elder Statesman/Grand Dame, Cattle Baron/Cattle Baroness, El Patron/La Patrona, El Rey/Lady El Rey

 

So if I wanted to shoot Silver Senior (yes I'm old) I could shoot  Duelist but not Silver Senior Gunfighter or Silver Senior Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter, because it is an age base?

 

 

 

That is correct.

 

I'm going to paraphrase how @Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 explained it to me.

 

Quote

If the category you sign up for has a shooting style listed(e.g. Senior Gunfighter), you must follow the shooting style rules and it doesn't matter what age you put in front of that, you still have to follow the shooting style rules.

 

Again the only two shooting styles are Duelist(Double Duelist and Duelist are technically the same) and Gunfighter.  All this means is if the category you sign up for has Gunfighter or Duelist in it, you have to obey the rules for that style regardless of the age that precedes it.

 

 

Any age followed by nothing => follow age based rules. Senior, Silver Senior, Grand Dame, etc...

Any age followed by something => follow shooting style rules. Senior Gunfighter, Elder Statesman Duelist, Lady Silver Senior Gunfighter, etc.

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5 minutes ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

That is correct.

 

 

Any age followed by nothing => follow age based rules. Senior, Silver Senior, Grand Dame, etc...

Any age followed by something => follow shooting style rules. Senior Gunfighter, Elder Statesman Duelist, Lady Silver Senior Gunfighter, etc.

 

So is Lady Senior Frontier Cartridge gunfighter a age based  category?

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1 minute ago, English Stranger, SASS 42090 said:

 

So is Lady Senior Frontier Cartridge gunfighter a age based  category?

No it's not. "Gunfighter" is the key word.

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image.jpeg.7930a214230aae9e3514a442e6c13cbf.jpeg

 

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19 minutes ago, Tyrel Cody said:

No it's not. "Gunfighter" is the key word.

 

Thank you, that is where the book is not clear. So gunfighter is a category and shooting style at the same time not just a shooting style like . Duelist or traditionalist (2 handed) is

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Just now, English Stranger, SASS 42090 said:

 

Thank you, that is where the book is not clear. So gunfighter is a category and shooting style at the same time not just a shooting style like . Duelist or traditionalist (2 handed) is

 

That's one way to look at it; except that Duelist is like gunfighter in that sense.

 

Duelist(includes Double Duelist) and Gunfighter are the only 2 shooting style categories.

 

Traditional(2 handed) is just a style.

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24 minutes ago, English Stranger, SASS 42090 said:

 

So is Lady Senior Frontier Cartridge gunfighter a age based  category?

Stanger - You are mixing Shooting styles with categories, and trying to use the terms interchangeably. 

There are AGE BASED categories

There are costume based categories

There are Black powder based categories

And yes.... There are two style based categories.

All of these MAY be subdivided (except the age based) into different ages and styles.

Example - You can shoot Gunfighter category and then subdivide that by age. The gunfighter may choose to shoot a stage Double Duelist but it changes nothing.

In Duelist Category you MAY choose the shoot Double duelist style but you may not shoot Gunfighter style.

 

 

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Quote

 

SHOOTING STYLE CATEGORIES

Shooting Style categories allow participants to compete with others utilizing the same shooting style (e.g., shooting revolvers one-handed instead of two-handed).  In addition, every shooting style can also be subdivided by gender, age, and propellant depending on demand and sanctioning category mandates.

 

SHB p.6

 

Quote

 

CATEGORY MATRIX

Above the “Base Categories” listed in this handbook, the local club monthly match and club annual match level, all SASS recognized shooting categories may be offered by subdividing by all factors; including age, gender, shooting style, and propellant.  

When breaking down all style/costume categories, the regulations for the base category is to be applied first, then the age limits.

 

SHB p.10

 

Starting with "Gunfighter" shooting-style category.

Cap & ball (Frontiersman-type) revolvers are legal in ALL categories.
Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter allows percussion revolvers, but ALL firearms must use BP or substitute propellants.

Frontiersman requires percussion revolvers shot Duelist-style; and ALL firearms must use BP or substitute propellants.

All categories may be "subdivided by age" (e.g. Senior) REF: conditional bold sections in SHB quotes.

 

 

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Oh God, please provide me strength!

 

I fear I must walk a similar path in the future.

 

@English Stranger, SASS 42090, I feel your pain in the rules.

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