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Tennessee williams

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Posted (edited)

So. I have a nasty 406 built for the Chevelle. It currently has an older mildly builtTH350 transmission in it. As you know they're 3 speed no overdrive. I also have a stock 200 4r factory transmission from an 80s model diesel small block car which has a steeper 1st gear than the 700r4 and a really good overdrive. 

Would you leave the th350 until it inevitably breaks or go ahead and build the 4speed and put it in? Fuel for this car is 7.50 per gallon so the better gas mileage with the overdrive is pretty moot, but the comfort of less rpms means a little bit to me.

 

Disclaimer:

No Widders were harmed in the posting of this thread.

Edited by Tennessee williams
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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

So. I have a nasty 406 built for the Chevelle. It currently has an older mildly builtTH350 transmission in it. As you know they're 3 speed no overdrive. I also have a stock 200 4r factory transmission from an 80s model diesel small block car which has a steeper 1st gear than the 700r4 and a really good overdrive. 

Would you leave the th350 until it inevitably breaks or go ahead and build the 4speed and put it in? Fuel for this car is 7.50 per gallon so the better gas mileage with the overdrive is pretty moot, but the comfort of less rpms means a little bit to me.

 

Disclaimer:

No Widders were harmed in the posting of this thread.

I think you should build the 4 speed then we should line our cars up for a 1/4 mile run.  Loser buys the beers and the nanner splits.

 

PS, I think you'll like the way the rear of my car looks.

Edited by Captain Bill Burt
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I'd go with the 200 4r. With the lower first gear then there's no need to run a lower final drive ratio, plus you might get better mileage running at lower rpms. 

Using the TH350 you'll need to run lower gears for the same performance, with no OD.

 

 

 

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Not that it matters, what year Chevelle? Was it a standard model or SS?

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5 minutes ago, Assassin said:

Not that it matters, what year Chevelle? Was it a standard model or SS?

65 2 dr hdtp

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10 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I think you should build the 4 speed then we should line our cars up for a 1/4 mile run.  Loser buys the beers and the nanner splits.

 

PS, I think you'll like the way the rear of my car looks.

Hehehe, only time I'd see the back of your car is when I spot you the 1 car length. Unless we go curves. I don't do curves.:ph34r:

And you can't use any of that fancy traction control neither!

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Nice, 64 & 65 were my favorite years. My uncle Bob had a 64 SS, 327 4 speed, white with back interior. 

 

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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Hehehe, only time I'd see the back of your car is when I spot you the 1 car length. Unless we go curves. I don't do curves.:ph34r:

And you can't use any of that fancy traction control neither!

First thing I do when I crank her up is turn on rev match (6 speed manual).  Then I go to Track mode, then I turn off all the nannies.  That way I get all 455 hp and tq with no coddling. 

 

You might be able to get me.  She will only do the 1/4 mile in about 12.5.  Of course top speed is 182, but I doubt you'll be setting the Chevelle up for top speed.

 

But hey, if you want to spot me a car length, it's your funeral.

Edited by Captain Bill Burt

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My experience, which is limited, a lower gear ratio in 1st will get you off from a standing start quicker but if you are looking for fuel mileage, most transmissions in its highest gear 3rd or 4th is a 1:1 ratio.  A 3 speed in 3rd gear is 1:1.  A 4 speed in 4th Gear is 1:1.  Unless you use a transmission with OD, you aren't going to change your fuel mileage.  What you can do is change the gear ratio in the rear end/axle but this is going to affect your stand start take off but help with the fuel economy.  Will you notice the difference in the start?  Only if you intend to drag race it but if you want it to have a high cool affect, sound out of the pipes, squeak the tires and just look overall cool, change the rear end.  At the track, circle racing, we started with a 6:20 rear end, went to a 6:0, then went up to a 6:12.  A 6:20 ran out of RPMs in the straights, a 6:0 didn't have enough lift off the corners.  The 6:12 was the best we could do with the engine package we had.  We never worried about the standing start. Never used 1st gear.  Never worried about fuel economy either.  :D    For what it's worth, we ran a Ford 9" rear end on a GM metric chassis with Chevy Short Block.  Lots of guys around here like the 9" rear ends as changing gears is way easier than GMs.  You can still find gears for GMs but I don't have much experience with them.

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If you go with 4 speed, you will need to swap the flex plate with a flywheel.

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26 minutes ago, Finagler 6853 Life said:

My experience, which is limited, a lower gear ratio in 1st will get you off from a standing start quicker but if you are looking for fuel mileage, most transmissions in its highest gear 3rd or 4th is a 1:1 ratio.  A 3 speed in 3rd gear is 1:1.  A 4 speed in 4th Gear is 1:1.  Unless you use a transmission with OD, you aren't going to change your fuel mileage.  What you can do is change the gear ratio in the rear end/axle but this is going to affect your stand start take off but help with the fuel economy.  Will you notice the difference in the start?  Only if you intend to drag race it but if you want it to have a high cool affect, sound out of the pipes, squeak the tires and just look overall cool, change the rear end.  At the track, circle racing, we started with a 6:20 rear end, went to a 6:0, then went up to a 6:12.  A 6:20 ran out of RPMs in the straights, a 6:0 didn't have enough lift off the corners.  The 6:12 was the best we could do with the engine package we had.  We never worried about the standing start. Never used 1st gear.  Never worried about fuel economy either.  :D    For what it's worth, we ran a Ford 9" rear end on a GM metric chassis with Chevy Short Block.  Lots of guys around here like the 9" rear ends as changing gears is way easier than GMs.  You can still find gears for GMs but I don't have much experience with them.

The 4sp automatic 200 4r has an "overdrive" 4th gear ratio of .67:1 which would help lower the RPMs at highway speeds. The rear gear is 3.90:1. I'm not familiar with those ratios you quoted. Would 6:12 the way its written be 1:2 therefore .5:1? I'm lost on it, sorry.

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Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

First thing I do when I crank her up is turn on rev match (6 speed manual).  Then I go to Track mode, then I turn off all the nannies.  That way I get all 455 hp and tq with no coddling. 

 

You might be able to get me.  She will only do the 1/4 mile in about 12.5.  Of course top speed is 182, but I doubt you'll be setting the Chevelle up for top speed.

 

But hey, if you want to spot me a car length, it's your funeral.

Bunch of newfangled stuff! I got in one of the Z28s. I think it was a '14 model. Good grief! It was like they hired a midget to sit under the seat and pat my butt while it was idling!

The desk top dyno said it should be around 615hp. You know how those are though. Problem is even though those chevelles are factory 4 link suspension, it's still factory and will never hold up, much less hook the way it is now. That engine is 12:1 compression so the fuel is 7.50 a gallon. About 6-8 miles a gallon It'll get. Maybe.

 

Already looking at swapping to a milder 406.

Edited by Tennessee williams

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Yep, it's a small block Chevy engine on steroids.  Betcha never heard of no lift shift!  From a stop, in Track mode, clutch in, got to WOT, wait for the rpms to bounce of the redline and stabilize, then drop the clutch.  From there on out you use the clutch to shift, but never come off WOT.  The puter manages the rpms on the shift.  Pretty nifty.  She takes premium, gets 17 mpg around town, and when I'm on I75 doing 84 mph heading up to TMM she's turning about 1900 rpms in 6th getting about 22 mpg.

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43 minutes ago, Sawhorse Kid said:

If you go with 4 speed, you will need to swap the flex plate with a flywheel.

 

You will also have to make sure the crankshaft is drilled for the clutch pilot bearing.

OLG 

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2 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Build a spare TH350 would be the path I would take.

OLG 

Will a th400 fit?

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10 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

The 4sp automatic 200 4r has an "overdrive" 4th gear ratio of .67:1 which would help lower the RPMs at highway speeds. The rear gear is 3.90:1. I'm not familiar with those ratios you quoted. Would 6:12 the way its written be 1:2 therefore .5:1? I'm lost on it, sorry.

 

Well I'm lost too, most of the time.  For every revolution the wheel makes the axle would rotate 6:0, 6:12, 6:20.  I don't know how that translates from Ford rear ends to GM.  Our tach would reach about 6,700 RPMs.  Engine builder was more comfortable with 6,200.  Don't know what the top speed was, no speedometer, but the average speed on a 1/3 mile asphalt track was between 78 - 79 MPH, average. Most times we would do lap times of around 15.2 - 15.4.   Down the straights they had to be pushing 90+.

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Just now, Captain Bill Burt said:

Will a th400 fit?

Don't know. 

I'm a AMC guy :lol:

OLG 

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Just now, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Don't know. 

I'm a AMC guy :lol:

OLG 

LOL.  I had a Hornet once.

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1 minute ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

LOL.  I had a Hornet once.

 

My deepest condolences :excl::lol:

OLG 

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Posted (edited)

Oh yeah!  Was President of the “Bomb Squad” car club for 8 years.  Hot Rods and Customs here in Phoenix.  Club broke up a few years ago.  The one I miss the most!

92DBF194-205A-4A16-82E9-264D97D41584.jpeg

Edited by Brandon Mavericks
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1 hour ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

 

You will also have to make sure the crankshaft is drilled for the clutch pilot bearing.

OLG 

4 speed automatic

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1 hour ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Don't know. 

I'm a AMC guy :lol:

OLG 

Knew a guy back in the day with a V8 shoehorned into a Gremlin. Funny thing, nobody that ever ran him ever laughed about Gremilns again.

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back in the late 70s , we drove our street race cars and trucks , 

NO trailer queens , pure motor , NO NOS , once in a while ya might see a blower sticking through the hood , 

 no traction control , even had points on the dist. 

 

 any more , they are bringing track cars to the street , pro mods , ect 

 

  street AIN'T street no more 

 

  CB 

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12 minutes ago, Chickasaw Bill SASS #70001 said:

back in the late 70s , we drove our street race cars and trucks , 

NO trailer queens , pure motor , NO NOS , once in a while ya might see a blower sticking through the hood , 

 no traction control , even had points on the dist. 

 

 any more , they are bringing track cars to the street , pro mods , ect 

 

  street AIN'T street no more 

 

  CB 

You're right about that! I've seen them with tube chassis, almost every body panel been replaced by fiberglass, one seat in the whole car, you name it. Cause they have a title, they think its a street car, lol. Like to see them go get groceries in it or leave it running for more than 10 minutes at a time and it not overheat!

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I have always been a car guy.

here is one of my favs. 440, 4 speed 4.11 rear and 4mpg

IMG_0409.jpeg

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2 hours ago, Finagler 6853 Life said:

 

Well I'm lost too, most of the time.  For every revolution the wheel makes the axle would rotate 6:0, 6:12, 6:20.  I don't know how that translates from Ford rear ends to GM.  Our tach would reach about 6,700 RPMs.  Engine builder was more comfortable with 6,200.  Don't know what the top speed was, no speedometer, but the average speed on a 1/3 mile asphalt track was between 78 - 79 MPH, average. Most times we would do lap times of around 15.2 - 15.4.   Down the straights they had to be pushing 90+.

I just don't know how to equate it. All I ever see with regards to rear end gear is some number to 1. Like a lot of mustang guys around here like 3.73:1 or your big drag guys like 4.10:1 or even a 4.56:1

All I know it means is for every turn of your ring gear, the pinion will turn the first number.

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3 minutes ago, Hillbilly Drifter said:

I have always been a car guy.

here is one of my favs. 440, 4 speed 4.11 rear and 4mpg

IMG_0409.jpeg

that a 71?

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72

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3.90:1 gears are fine.  My 3/4 ton pickup has 4.10:1 gears it has overdrive and it still runs at 2500 rpm's at 75 mph. The truck has taller tires which offsets the gear ratio some. The tires on your Chevelle are not as tall as the truck tires, I'm guessing with 3.90 gears you'll still be turning 2500 revs at 75 mph.  The overdrive will help some, your car will still be a gas hog regardless.

If you gas it hard it's going to offset all the economy measures you take. 

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If I remember right the 200 wasn't that great of tranny, I think I'd be looking into a 4L80 or a 6L80, way stronger, just need to have a stand alone controller.

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41 minutes ago, JP McLintock said:

If I remember right the 200 wasn't that great of tranny, I think I'd be looking into a 4L80 or a 6L80, way stronger, just need to have a stand alone controller.

You're right. The TH200 sucked behind a stout motor. The 200 4r though was an upgraded version that held up good on those Buick Grand Nationals, and 350 diesel engines. They're also the same size so I wouldnt have to mess with shortening the driveshaft or getting a controller.

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5 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

You're right. The TH200 sucked behind a stout motor. The 200 4r though was an upgraded version that held up good on those Buick Grand Nationals, and 350 diesel engines. They're also the same size so I wouldnt have to mess with shortening the driveshaft or getting a controller.

It was, but neither of the engines were overly powerful, it would probably hold up as long as the beatings are few and far between.

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Yeah, if you must make extensive modifications install a newer 6 speed manual out of a late 90's or early 2000's camaro or firebird.

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