45 Colt Government.

[Savvy Jack]

I know you guys have seen this article: https://www.leverguns.com/articles/taylor/45_short_colt.htm

 

I read Jim's article about the 45 Colt Government ammo ever so often to try and keep it fresh in my brain. This last time I read it I decided to try an maybe get a close date for the deteriorated ammo box. Jim please chime in if you know the date!!!!

Here is the box

 

Jim stated they were filled with black powder and that coincides with Winchester's "Green" top label. Winchester labels black powder loads with green labels. Not sure when Winchester ceases manufacture of black powder loads but it was somewhere between early 1920's and 1928ish.

The top appears to be of the type that fully encases the box, evident of the "1920" box used between 1920-1927

The K-code, whats left of it, can be seen on the bottom of the right flap. It could be K4545T. Winchester switched to the K-code system in 1920.

The "label" on those "two-piece" boxes...as you can partially see, covers the top, wraps around the ends and lapped over the bottom, sealing the box. Again, part of the "1920" design.

The "RED W" on the end label started in 1906 and was common, overprinting the cartridge cut, between 1906-1915/WWI era. After about 1915-1920, the cartridge cut was removed and the red "W" was overprinted by cartridge name call-outs as is seen in the 45 Colt Government photo.

Still an interesting piece for more than just the long Colt short Colt argument!

My guess is that the date of manufacture of this box would be between 1921 and 1925.

Jim also states that Kieth made a statement in "Sixguns", page 285, about Remington...not Winchester!

There were other shorter 45 Colt cartridge manufactures...at least three in total Winchester 45 short Colt cartridge. (notice I said short, not Short!!!)
Guy Hildebrand, a.k.a. Oldammoguy shows photos of all three. https://www.oldammo.com/march08.htm

Headstamps
1. Jim's "WRA Co. 45 Colt" (Black Powder)
2. "REM-UMC 45 Colt" (Smokeless Powder) mentioned by Elmer Kieth in his book "Sixguns".
3. "Peters 45 C. Govt" (Black Powder)

I honestly think this is were the tern 45 long Colt comes from. (notice I said long not Long??)....later than we think, probably in the 1920's...right in the midst of Elmer Kieth's 20 year old youth days.

Here are some photos from my Winchester "World's Standard Guns and Ammunition" catalog 83 dated 1925.
Winchester's 1938 catalog, the next in line that I have, does not offer information for this cartridge.

We all know this 45 Colt Government cartridge was for the 45 S&W but fits the 45 Colt SAA.

Wait for it...........there is not such thing as a 45 Long Colt or 45 Short Colt but here is the proof there was a 45 long Colt and a 45 short Colt (see what I did there?)

 

 

 

 

[Griff]

No, there WAS a 45 Colt and a 45 Colt Gov't.  Not long or short.

[Savvy Jack]

36 minutes ago, Griff said:

No, there WAS a 45 Colt and a 45 Colt Gov't.  Not long or short.

 

No, there were short and long cartridges this 45 "short" Colts and 45 "long" Colt...LOL

 

no, no, no, I agree with you 100% "45 Colt", and no other!!!

[Savvy Jack]

Oh, the M1873 and Schofield revolvers were long superseded by the Model 1909 when this particular 1920's ammo was manufactured, thus the shorter cartridge was still being used by the Military well into the 1920's?

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

The United States Marine Corps hold on to materiel every other branch believes to be obsolete.... if any were "liberated" during the Span Am War, I'll bet they were still in working condition in the 1920s.  

 

Good luck, GJ

 

[Savvy Jack]

Another interesting, something to think about is that the Model 1909 ammunition used by the military was normal Colt length using RSQ smokeless powder packed in Military boxes. 

 

 

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

PLUS ONE too Griff  

[Savvy Jack]

3 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

PLUS ONE too Griff  

That's right, there were only two true revolvers that those two different cartridges fit, The 45 Colt and the 45 Schofield. It would appear that by 1909 when the military was using the Colt M1909 double action, that the ammunition was reverted back to the standard military loading, longer case 45 Colt cartridge...but had a wider rim.