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Rooster Ron Wayne

Sold Pending funds For sale Winchester. It's a Trench 12g shot gun

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Posted (edited)

Do to health reasons I'm selling some of my stuff.

I have a real Winchester .

Its s take down trench ( riot ) shotgun .

It has been re-parkerized before I owned it .

This is how I bought the gun.

You can still see it's a number matching Winchester .

With the bayonet and sling.

I have been told and read that not all trench guns had a bomb on the side .

I can not see any signs of a bomb.

But as stated it has been

re-parkerized. 

You also can not read any Choke Size do to being re-parkerized. 

I'm asking 1800 obo + shipping 

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Edited by Rooster Ron Wayne

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Is it stamped on the barrel on the receiver end , CYL -MOD - or FULL 

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:FlagAm: Has the butt stock been shortened at one time and the cutoff reattached?  I see a line on both sides of stock in front of pad.

Someone correct me if I am mistaken, the barrel should be stamped CYL to be a true trench version.  Every trench '97 and '12 I encountered while serving was marked CYL.  Wanted that pattern to spread, don't you know.

Chas B.

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Like I stated it has been

re-parkerized so I can't see anything. 

I can tell from looks it's a Cylinder bore .

It is a 2 3/4  Chamber .

Has it been reamed ? 

I have no idea. 

She shoots great .

Throws shells great .

And is a tight gun with good checkering on the hammer .

That is always a good indication of Wear and tear on a 97.

It will make a great Wild bunch gun or just a shooter for someone who likes 97's .

I think with a re-parkerize it probably hurt the true collector value. 

As far as the stock goes I have no idea why the line is around the stock .

But it fits me good at 6" 280pnds 

Like stated already this is the way I bought the gun at a Action several years ago .

 

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You must be a funny looking fellow at 6 inch's and 280 lbs. Just being a smarty. I agree should say cylinder bore on the left side of the barrel in front of the receiver. 

Looks like they buffed the hell out of that gun before the parkerize it, I think the original guns were blued.

  Good luck and good health.

     Rob

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I'm going to guess someone had a slip-on butt pad on it to cause the line on the stock.

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You know , for the money that you are asking for your 97; , you should have about a dozen pictures showing (in focus pictures would be nice ) what ckoke is stamped on the left rear of the barrel by the receiver . Splitthumb  

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Splitthumb said:

You know , for the money that you are asking for your 97; , you should have about a dozen pictures showing (in focus pictures would be nice ) what ckoke is stamped on the left rear of the barrel by the receiver . Splitthumb  

I apologize for my actions and words yesterday. 

I did not act very Christ like .

I posted some more  photos .

Ron .

 

Edited by Rooster Ron Wayne
Apologizes

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Posted (edited)

I don’t think he’s being unreasonable. Your pictures are blurry and there have been a lot of trench gun fakes. You have no way of telling if it’s real except your word and the word of the seller to you. 

Edited by Deadpan Willy
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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Deadpan Willy said:

I don’t think he’s being unreasonable. Your pictures are blurry and there have been a lot of trench gun fakes. You have no way of telling if it’s real except your word and the word of the seller. 

I apologize for my actions and words yesterday. 

I did not act very Christ like .

I posted some more  photos .

Ron .

Edited by Rooster Ron Wayne
Apologizes

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Posted (edited)

Not trying to rain on your parade. You can sell it for whatever you want. But your title clearly says trench gun. Maybe you should learn to read your own post?  You are asking a lot of money for a trench gun with no markings and to just take your word for it. 

Edited by Deadpan Willy
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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Deadpan Willy said:

Not trying to rain on your parade. You can sell it for whatever you want. But your title clearly says trench gun. Maybe you should learn to read your own post?  You are asking a lot of money for a trench gun with no markings and to just take your word for it. 

 

I apologize for my actions and words yesterday. 

I did not act very Christ like .

I posted some more  photos .

Ron .

Edited by Rooster Ron Wayne
Apologizes

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It’s like arguing with a wall. Asking a lot of money for something that can’t be verified. Good luck with your sale. 

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Posted (edited)

And it's been stated that the pics are blurry - - deal with that.  Your PRICE is saying its real.  Lots of folks pass off lesser guns for high dollar ones. Not saying YOU are but if you want folks to pony up cash - you'd best consider doing a better job of representing it.

Edited by Joe LaFives #5481

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Joe LaFives #5481 said:

And it's been stated that the pics are blurry - - deal with that.  Lots of folks pass off lesser guns for high dollar ones. Not saying YOU are but if you want folks to pony up cash - you'd best consider doing a better job of representing it.

I apologize for my actions and words yesterday. 

I did not act very Christ like .

I posted some more  photos .

Ron .

Edited by Rooster Ron Wayne
Apologizes

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Posted (edited)

 

E 729357 is the number .

I posted some more pics. 

This is the best I can do.

And all I know .

I'm not trying to deceive anyone or say its something it's not. 

From everything I can tell .

It's a real Winchester. 

Was it a factory made trench gun or a Amory made trench gun or a Police made trench gun or even a Civilian made trench gun ?

I have no idea? 

This is how I bought the gun .

I'm just trying to sell some things off so my wife is not stick with it .

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Edited by Rooster Ron Wayne
More pics

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According the serial number made in 1922. 

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Any markings on the bayonet lug? I am thinking this is a replicated trench gun, possibly for Vietnam era reenactments. I had s similar treatment done to a late 30s Stevens. Made a fake 520-30 trencher with parkerized finish by having barrel shortened to 20", sanding off checkering, adding sling swivels, and mounting repro heat shield and bayonet. Looked real from a few feet. Many WWII era trench guns were put back into service for Vietnam and many were parkerized. Just my take on this.

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729357 was manufactured in 1922.  Given that the war ended in 1919, there was little US military arms procurement at the time.  Also, the WWI era trench guns were solid frames with six rows of holes in the heat shield.  The WWII contract guns were take downs with (according to one source) four rows of holes in the heat shield.  I am not sure when this transition in the heat shield design occurred and a search on line shows purported WWI gun’s with the four row heat shields.  The supplied photos don’t show clearly how many rows of holes are in the heat shield, but it looks like four.  Due to the relatively small number of guns produced and the fact that a lot of us trench guns were given to the south Vietnamese during the war, real trench guns are very rare in the US.   There have been multiple manufacturers of reproduction heat shields of varying quality, not to mention the real heat shields made as spare parts.  There is speculation that there are far more fake trench guns than were ever actually produced.  Buyers need to be very careful and the gun has to tick a lot of boxes to command the price associated with a real trench gun.  

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Here is some more pics .

This is the best I can do .

As I keep saying it has been re-parkerized so I cant read or see everything. 

And I'm not even saying it is or is not a real Trench gun .

I am saying it's a real 1922 Winchester 1897 12g Shotgun .

In the one pic you can kinda make out the Winchester proof mark .

And the heat sheld has 6 sets of holes in it .

 

Real or Not Real Trench Gun ?

 

It's up for sale .

 

Its defintely a Real Winchester.

 its definitely a number matching Winchester. 

Its definitely tight .

Its definitely re-parkerized.

Its definitely a 1922.

 

The price was just a starting point.

You decide what its worth to you and make me a offer,

if it's worth it to me we can move forward from there. 

 

I'm being 100% transparent with the fact I dont know ?

Ron 

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Ron, I looked at all of the pics you have posted, including the newest ones. 

First of all it is for sure a trench gun

Secondly for sure it is an original Winchester 1897 Take Down model

Thirdly in order to confirm if it is an actual 1897 trench gun originally made by Winchester for the government there are certain things to look for to reassure it is a real one and not a conversion or fake.

1. U.S. Stamp on receiver

2. Flaming Bomb Stamp(s) one on receiver and one on top of barrel near receiver

3. One of two cartouche (spelling) stamps on the butt stock wood

4. Original "CYL" bore stamp on barrel where all of the original Winchesters had bore stamps

5. Most, not all, were made with either smooth or checkered steel butt plates

6. Original Winchester trench guns did not have a front sight as the heat shield would not slide over it.

As best I can tell from the pictures you have posted, an applying the above checks, your gun has none of them and I am sure they were not ALL buffed off when parkerized. If you look closely at the picture depicting the 12 Ga stamp you can see some of the GA has been removed in the sanding process, my guess is the choke stamp was mod or full and removed to pass it off as a trench gun.

I am sure you did not do it. It was done by whomever did the conversion. 

Sorry, but yours, in my opinion is a conversion and not an original trench gun.

:FlagAm:

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Thank you OG.

So I guess I'm open to offers on what others are willing to value it at ?

As I stated all along. 

This is how I bought the gun .

I have lots of stuff and my health is getting worse not better .

So I'm going to sell off a lot of stuff over the next few months .

Guns,  Cart , holsters , clothes,  Boots , lots of stuff that I can no longer use if I cant shoot Cowboy .

I'm not going to leave the Wire .

But I cant shoot every week .

Maybe once or twice a year till I cant walk anymore. 

Thank you all for looking and your help and interest. 

God bless you all. 

Rooster 

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Rooster. We all have taken a bath on "collectible" firearms that turned out not to be what we thought. But folks here on the Wire were just trying to get you to that point. Now someone just needs to add up what the individual components are worth and make you an offer. Maybe post on a military reenactment page? Anyway, best of luck. It's hard to let stuff go, especially when your health is going, too. 

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OK, so can one of the "experts" here tell us what it should actually be worth???

I MIGHT be interested. 

Don't need a GENUINE trench gun, but a Winchester that looks similar might be useful.

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Posted (edited)

Ok .

So we have come to the determination that it's  Not a factory made Trench gun .

But we also determined it is a real takedown Winchester number matching tight 1922 Shotgun .

Who knows when or how it become a trench gun .

Armory made ?

Gunsmith made ? 

My Loss for what I paid for it !

It's still a very very nice and tight real 1922 Winchester made in to a trench gun .

With all the accessories. 

So let's say I will let it go for 1200.00 shipped .

Otherwise I will just keep it .

Thank you all for your interest and help with the gun .

It's way way to nice to just give away. 

God bless.

Rooster 

Edited by Rooster Ron Wayne

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BTT

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PM sent.

Sold pending funds. 

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