ANOTHER military question

[Alpo]

Does the army consider magazines to be disposables?

 

Something I read years ago (Soldier of Fortune, maybe?) Marine telling about an experience in Vietnam. After a fight, when the soldiers had gone one way, and the VC had gone the other way, the Marines were out in the battlefield picking up the magazines that the soldiers had left lying on the ground. Marines never have enough equipment.

 

Then there was a scene in the movie Kelly's Heroes. They're taking a rest stop in a shady grove, and someone is going around with a bag passing out ammunition. People were telling him things like, "five clips and about six loose rounds". He would give them five loaded Thompson magazines and a handful of loose ammo so they could top up the magazine that was in the gun. Apparently they would shoot their gun dry, pull the empty magazine, drop it to the ground and replace it with a full one, and move on.

 

Now this actually makes sense. "I don't have time to be worrying about no damn empty magazine. Somebody is trying to kill me."

[Forty Rod SASS 3935]

Well, if you have say 500 rounds of .30-06 in machine gun links and only two full clips of bloc clips for your M-1 you might want to pick up any empty clips you could find and load them at your first opportunity rather than single load your weapon.

 

We who had guns like Thompsons and M-3 /M-3A1 grease guns, M-1 and M-2 carbines, and other non-standard issue weapons, tried to keep our mags after they ran dry and reload them when we had time.  We also gathered up any stray mags we found for trade stock, like for the guys who were using AKs, Swedish Ks, and other stuff that showed up.  Ammo for most of the weapons we had was plentiful, but mags weren't available in many cases.

 

I had two 50 round drums for my 1928A1 and a dozen or so 30 round stick mags.  I traded the drums (awkward, slow to reload, and not very reliable, but they looked cool) to a Korean officer for a M-3 grease gun for my buddy.  He had already rounded up a foot locker full of assorted mags and found what he needed in his own stash.

[Cyrus Cassidy #45437]

Magazines are not treated as disposable.  They are on the commander's property book, and are re-used for YEARS.  I think there may be some still in service that my old man carried in Vietnam.  

 

That said, property is labeled, "expendable, non-expendable, or durable."  Expendable gets used up (chem lights, batteries, food, etc.).  Non-expendable never gets used up and must always be accounted for.  Even if it's destroyed, you have to turn in the destroyed equipment to prove you didn't steal it.  Most objects are non-expendable, from an M1 tank to an office chair.  Durable is my favorite -- it sorta kinda gets used up but not as quickly as expendable items.  Screwdrivers are listed as durable, but other tools are not; I guess they assume our mechanics are going to wear out the business end of the screwdriver and have to get a new one.  One must still account for the item to prove you didn't steal it, but it is assumed it is going to wear out.

 

Magazines are classified as durable.  I guess the Army assumes the spring is going to wear out.  But, like I said, some of them still in service are older than I am.  

[Sawyer]

“Combat Loss” solved lots of property logs balancing problems.  I carried 36 mags and enough ammo re-load them.  Time and situation permitting I picked them up, better to have than not have!

[Dr Matt Lurse]

Cyrus nailed it.

 

Now when using them on a two way range you try to have a dump pouch to put empty mags in, or I just stuck them behind my armour or down my tshirt neck.  If push comes to shove you ground it and pick it up when you can.  I suppose if it was super dire you could just leave 'em (I never had to) but it's always best policy to have good gear accountability.

[Mud Marine,SASS#54686 Life]

The toops that were my security carried Thompsons with 30 round stcks. There were still some 50 round drums in use but they were unreliable. Sand, heat, dirt, etc. screwed them up. I had two with my personal Thompson. I used it for John Bromfield type stuff like drawing indian heads on plywood, and tin. Now, I cannot afford the plywood and tin.

[Utah Bob #35998]

2 hours ago, Dr Matt Lurse said:

Cyrus nailed it.

 

Now when using them on a two way range you try to have a dump pouch to put empty mags in, or I just stuck them behind my armour or down my tshirt neck.  If push comes to shove you ground it and pick it up when you can.  I suppose if it was super dire you could just leave 'em (I never had to) but it's always best policy to have good gear accountability.

I expect it was a bit easier to find mags in the Sandbox than in Elephant grass or jungle. 

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

Vietnam combat vet friend of mine who carried an M-16 when he wasn't carrying an M-79, said they didn't bother and nobody expected them to. Echoed UB's comment.

[Tequila Shooter]

Not trying to get picky or insulting, the clips are always disposable, not the magazines.  An M16, M4, etc have ammunition on stripper clips to make loading the magazines faster.  As far as dropping or not, depends on the situation, you try not to leave them behind because you never know if you're going to have to reload outside the wire.

[Major Crimes]

Here is a pick of Aussie webbing from Vietnam era.

The pouches on each end are for magazines,

One had three loaded SLR mags and the other was empty to hold the empty mags. 

We poor Aussies cant afford to lose mags

[Cyrus Cassidy #45437]

2 hours ago, Tequila Shooter said:

Not trying to get picky or insulting, the clips are always disposable, not the magazines.  An M16, M4, etc have ammunition on stripper clips to make loading the magazines faster.  As far as dropping or not, depends on the situation, you try not to leave them behind because you never know if you're going to have to reload outside the wire.

 

True, but no one has bothered mentioning clips except the guy who talked about the M1 Garand, which used enbloc clips.

[Tequila Shooter]

41 minutes ago, Cyrus Cassidy #45437 said:

 

True, but no one has bothered mentioning clips except the guy who talked about the M1 Garand, which used enbloc clips.

 

Cyrus, I know I was addressing Alpo.  I can tell that you know the difference.

[Ramblin Gambler]

Had this discussion on another board.  We found out that it depends on the branch for the modern military.  IIRC, Marines have magazine lanyards to help them hang on to them, and the Army's doctrine is that in a firefight it's not worth messing with an empty mag.  I might have the branches mixed up. 

[Utah Bob #35998]

1 minute ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

Had this discussion on another board.  We found out that it depends on the branch for the modern military.  IIRC, Marines have magazine lanyards to help them hang on to them, and the Army's doctrine is that in a firefight it's not worth messing with an empty mag.  I might have the branches mixed up. 

How does that work??

[Subdeacon Joe]

On the subject of clips - in the movie, Sergeant York, rifle range scene, he is handed the clip, loads his weapon, and then throws the clip on the ground.  I should think that the DI would have landed on him like a ton of bricks for that.  

[Alpo]

1 hour ago, Tequila Shooter said:

 

Cyrus, I know I was addressing Alpo.  I can tell that you know the difference.

Then obviously you have decided that I don't know the difference. I presume you have made that decision based on my use of the word "clips" in the original post, where I was quoting the movie.

 

Regardless of why you made that decision, I wish to thank you for feeling the need to educate me, and following through on that feeling. There is nothing I like better than being told by someone I don't know that I am stupid.

 

In the future please be kind enough keep your remarks to yourself.

[J.D. Daily]

I was in the artillery so I am not a reliable source.  However, in VN after issuing personal firearms, M-16, 1911 & magazines nobody cared if you turned them in when you were reassigned.  The 1911 I carried when I ran the 25th ID's pirate radio station was handed to me by a guy in the 11th ACR who was going back to the WORLD.  The station equipment & music library came from the 11th ACR when they ran the station in An Loc.  In WWII I doubt that the Army cared if M1/M2 carbine magazines were turned in.  They are notoriously weak & would fail to feed properly after being loaded a few times.  They weren't any better in Korea & VN.

[J.D. Daily]

9 minutes ago, Alpo said:

Then obviously you have decided that I don't know the difference. I presume you have made that decision based on my use of the word "clips" in the original post, where I was quoting the movie.

 

Regardless of why you made that decision, I wish to thank you for feeling the need to educate me, and following through on that feeling. There is nothing I like better than being told by someone I don't know that I am stupid.

 

In the future please be kind enough keep your remarks to yourself.

Please excuse me if I ever pipe up to correct the incorrect use or name of a firearm component.  I am an engineer.  To prevent a reader from needlessly correcting me when quoting I use quotation marks.

[Dr Matt Lurse]

53 minutes ago, Utah Bob #35998 said:

How does that work??

Gutted 550 cord looped from the bottom of the mag and secured by 100mph tape around the bottom.  Also can be used as a pull tab to get mags out a carrier.  When empty you just hook the 550 cord loop on a carabiner that is on your gear.  I never thought it worked well, slow and they clang.

 

As far as being a service dependent thing, in another response dunno of course but everyone I ever worked with always tried to retain gear.  Again if you have to dump and leave em in a holy hell situation then so be it. 

[Sawyer]

The fight is ON!  Back offf or I will Clip your ears for looking at the pictures in my magazine!  Correct where necessary!

[Dr Matt Lurse]

16 minutes ago, Sawyer said:

The fight is ON!  Back offf or I will Clip your ears for looking at the pictures in my magazine!  Correct where necessary!

But will you do that with 45 LC or 45 Colt? ;D

[DocWard]

I can only say we were trained to keep the magazines if at all possible, and were accountable for them. Yes it is slightly faster to hit the magazine release and let the mag fall to the ground before inserting a new magazine, but not by much. We also trained to do tactical reloads whenever possible.

 

Having said that, I will neither confirm nor deny that when I returned from my last deployment, and went to turn in gear, that we were specifically told we "left all magazines for the M-16/M-4 and the M9 in country."

[DocWard]

1 hour ago, J.D. Daily said:

Please excuse me if I ever pipe up to correct the incorrect use or name of a firearm component.  I am an engineer.  To prevent a reader from needlessly correcting me when quoting I use quotation marks.

 

Not to put too fine a point on it, but, he did (emphasis added):

 

13 hours ago, Alpo said:

Then there was a scene in the movie Kelly's Heroes. They're taking a rest stop in a shady grove, and someone is going around with a bag passing out ammunition. People were telling him things like, "five clips and about six loose rounds". He would give them five loaded Thompson magazines and a handful of loose ammo so they could top up the magazine that was in the gun. Apparently they would shoot their gun dry, pull the empty magazine, drop it to the ground and replace it with a full one, and move on.

 

[Tequila Shooter]

10 hours ago, Tequila Shooter said:

Not trying to get picky or insulting, the clips are always disposable, not the magazines.  An M16, M4, etc have ammunition on stripper clips to make loading the magazines faster.  As far as dropping or not, depends on the situation, you try not to leave them behind because you never know if you're going to have to reload outside the wire.

 

5 hours ago, Alpo said:

Then obviously you have decided that I don't know the difference. I presume you have made that decision based on my use of the word "clips" in the original post, where I was quoting the movie.

 

Regardless of why you made that decision, I wish to thank you for feeling the need to educate me, and following through on that feeling. There is nothing I like better than being told by someone I don't know that I am stupid.

 

In the future please be kind enough keep your remarks to yourself.

 

I guess the insulting part fell on deaf ears.  I never said you were stupid.  I will keep my remarks to you to myself from now on,  your questions are not worth my time.

[Utah Bob #35998]

13 hours ago, Dr Matt Lurse said:

Gutted 550 cord looped from the bottom of the mag and secured by 100mph tape around the bottom.  Also can be used as a pull tab to get mags out a carrier.  When empty you just hook the 550 cord loop on a carabiner that is on your gear.  I never thought it worked well, slow and they clang.

 

As far as being a service dependent thing, in another response dunno of course but everyone I ever worked with always tried to retain gear.  Again if you have to dump and leave em in a holy hell situation then so be it. 

Okay, a loop. That makes sense. I was picturing a lanyard which is attached to the body or web gear. That would be a tangly mess. 

[Ramblin Gambler]

15 hours ago, Utah Bob #35998 said:

How does that work??

 

Well, to the people who were taught to do it, it works well and they thought everyone else was an idiot.  To the people who weren't taught that way it's a tangly mess and everyone else was an idiot.  We had people on that board questioning whether the other people actually even served in the military until we figured out it was branch dependent.  It was sort of amusing. 

 

14 hours ago, Dr Matt Lurse said:

Gutted 550 cord looped from the bottom of the mag and secured by 100mph tape around the bottom.  Also can be used as a pull tab to get mags out a carrier.  When empty you just hook the 550 cord loop on a carabiner that is on your gear.  I never thought it worked well, slow and they clang.

 

As far as being a service dependent thing, in another response dunno of course but everyone I ever worked with always tried to retain gear.  Again if you have to dump and leave em in a holy hell situation then so be it. 

 

The magpul guys got started making these to replace the tape.  I didn't realize the lanyards were only hooked to the carbbeaner after being removed.  I thought they were all hooked the caribbeaner the entire time.  But I never served

 

 

[Steel-eye Steve SASS #40674]

1 hour ago, Utah Bob #35998 said:

Okay, a loop. That makes sense. I was picturing a lanyard which is attached to the body or web gear. That would be a tangly mess. 

The Finns actually have lanyard rings on the magazines of their AK 47 style RK62 assault rifle as up until recently they were in to minimalist load bearing gear.    

[Utah Bob #35998]

I was thinking of the old 1911 lanyard used in WW1 and by MPs. I was wondering how that would work on M-4 mags.

The cord loop and magpull accessory concept makes sense.

[Alpo]

Pretty sure that was the original thought with the 1911. That's why the magazines made pre-war have a loop on the bottom.

 

One of the complaints made during the "I don't care what you want to do - we are going to have an automatic pistol and join the 20th century" trials was that magazines were too expensive and the soldiers would lose them.

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

2 minutes ago, Steel-eye Steve SASS #40674 said:

The Finns actually have lanyard rings on the magazines of their AK 47 style RK62 assault rifle as up until recently they were in to minimalist load bearing gear.    

I'm not making the connection with lanyard on magazines and minimalist load bearing gear.  In my mind one is still carrying the load somewhere. Could you expand on the concept?

[Utah Bob #35998]

1 minute ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

I'm not making the connection with lanyard on magazines and minimalist load bearing gear.  In my mind one is still carrying the load somewhere. Could you expand on the concept?

Carrying in pockets instead of using LBE pouches?

[Steel-eye Steve SASS #40674]

9 hours ago, Utah Bob #35998 said:

Carrying in pockets instead of using LBE pouches?

Correct 

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

I’m kinda dense. Still don’t understand the purpose of the lanyards if they’re not going to hung on anything?

[Birdgun Quail, SASS #63663]

Playboy magazines were reused.

[Alpo]

Most likely time after time after time after time.