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polecat joe

BP SUBSTITUTE SHOTGUN LOADS

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With all this time on our hands I'm getting into shooting with smoke. I have some Black MZ and Triple 7 and would like to know what the appropriate charge would be for a 12 gauge, STS hull with 7/8 shot. I've looked for load tables but can't seem to find any.

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I'm no help with Triple 7.  Don't load it, don't like it.  Black MZ on the other hand is also same same as APP.  I like 40gr 2f APP or Black MZ.  Black MZ is now out of production so to continue with a similar loading, you will wind up having to switch to APP.  Whoops, forgot, I also load 1 Ounce shot.  Will take down any well adjusted popper.  Or Rabbit.  Or Squirrel, or Pesant, Or Dove Or ..............

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Posted (edited)

You really won't find much data for BP substitutes in shotshells. 

 

Here's where you can find Capt. George Baylor's notes on shotshell loading with BP subs:

https://www.curtrich.com/bpsubsdummies.3.html

 

Most folks load their shotshells with a fairly short wad so they can get more shot payload.   You may want a light load or a heavy load.   I tend more toward a heavy load of shot because it is quite easy to have donut-hole patterns with BP.    And with shotshells it's all about the getting the right "stack height" (powder plus wad plus shot)  so that you can make a good crimp.  And, I'll assume you want to load 12 gauge shells and use a fold crimp.  That's most common for Cowboy shooting.

 

Triple 7 is expensive to use as a shotgun powder, and more powerful than you need.  I'd stick with Black MZ or the fairly close equivalent APP powder for the future (since Black MZ has now been discontinued).

 

Loading shotshells with subs is pretty forgiving.  Pressures are low.   It's more critical to get the right stack height to crimp well.  Leave no air gaps between powder and wad.

 

Lowest power level - You need about the equivalent amount of substitute powder that gives you the power of 45 grains by volume of Black Powder to get a good working light load.   That is about 35 grains (weight) of  APP / BMZ. 

 

A heavy 12 gauge power load can go as heavy as about 65 grains of Black Powder.   Which would be about 50 grains (weight) of APP / BMZ.

 

Heavy shot loads work well in these type of shotshells.   You probably won't notice the recoil with a 1 1/8 ounce shot load.  1 ounce works.  Lighter shot levels get pretty dicey.  Then pick a plastic wad that at least holds the shot.   If you are using light powder levels, you can often use the same wad you would with smokeless.  Maybe the Claybuster CB1118-12 (a white wad) or the CB1100-12 (pink)).    If you need more room, the Winchester WAA12R equivalent wad (Claybuster CB1138-12 bright red wad) is about the shortest wad made in 12 gauge, and it works real well with heavy powder and heavy shot loads.   Commonly used Cowboy light-load wads like the gray CB0178-12 are a poor choice because they are SO long and you need room in a BP sub shotshell for more volume of powder.

 

Like CC above, I like about 40-45 grains APP, 1 ounce of shot, and I use a CB1100-12 wad that I put enough pressure on to seat the wad so the top of the petals are right at the crimp fold line.   This will be  a light load.

 

Adjust POWDER or WAD selection as needed to get the pattern you like and the crimp to work well.   It is safer to do this adjustment when loading BP subs because you have lower working pressures with BP and Subs than with smokeless powders.

 

Of course, you can swap out the use of a plastic wad and use old-style felt wads, card wads, cork wads, gas seals, etc.   That is slower to load than a single plastic wad.  And requires a little experimentation to stack up right and still give a decent pattern.

 

Clean barrels after shooting with soapy water or other water-based solvent of your choice.  Spray or soak bores with solvent, let set 5 minutes, push the fouling snake out with a paper towel wad on a shotgun jag.   Looks ugly but very easy.   Spray with light coat of oil to prevent rust.      Hint - PAM (equal parts of hydrogen Peroxide, rubbing Alcohol, and Murphy's oil soap) works marvelously.  Also makes a wonderful corona-virus cleaning solution!  :lol:  But components are hard to come by right now.  :(

 

Good luck, GJ

Edited by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708
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Posted (edited)

This is the load I have been using for several years. Was given to me by the sneaky low down Soot Lord known as Yusta B. :P He is responsible for turning me towards the Dark Side and I can't thank him enough for all the fun I have experienced since then.  :)

 

Federal Top Gun or Remington Gun Club, or STS hull. Doesn't work well with AA hulls as they are slightly shorter inside and the stack height doesn't come out right. For AA hulls try a CB100-12 or CB1118-12 wad.

35 grains of Black MZ or 3F APP

Claybuster CB0178-12 wad

7/8 oz of shot

 

I use an adjustable charge bar so that I can tweak the shot up or down slightly to get a nice crimp. I also seat the wad firmly on top of the powder charge. 

You can also tweak the powder charge a little bit but if you are seeing fouling on the outside of the hulls you need to up the charge so that the hull seals well and prevents blow by.  If you allow blow by the hulls will start sticking in your chambers.

 

The above load will take down any SG KD as long as you do your part and hit it.

 

Edited by Sedalia Dave
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I've been shooting Triple 7 in SG for large matches for a few years now.  I use everything that you mentioned and a 1.9cc Lee dipper of Triple 7 FFg for 7/8 oz load.  I'll sometimes us a 1 1/8 oz load of shot and use the 2.2cc Lee dipper for that.  Of course use the correct wad size for the amount of shot that you use.

 

Kajun

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Thank you all for your information. It helps a lot.

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When I load plastic shells I found Remington STS worked well.  I used the pink claybusters and APP powder.  I don't if I'm the only one but I found that I could only get 1 or 2 reloads out of the plastic shells I guess it's due to the APP getting hotter than smokeless.  The other thing was the wads left melted plastic in the barrels, easy enough to clean out with a bore snake but you should've seen my face the first time I saw long pink plastic coming out.  I'm fazing out the STS's and going to brass and fiber wads.  I can use my MEC loader for everything but the powder that I still hand measure.  Oh and don't forget the cool factor of brass :rolleyes:

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32 minutes ago, Tequila Shooter said:

I don't if I'm the only one but I found that I could only get 1 or 2 reloads out of the plastic shells I guess it's due to the APP getting hotter than smokeless.  The other thing was the wads left melted plastic in the barrels

 

Well known situation.  All the BP and subs burn hot.  It fries the inside of plastic hulls.   It heats up barrels quickly.  Then the hot barrels melt plastic off the plastic wads as they travel down the barrel and deposit both melted plastic and powder fouling on the barrel walls.  Yes, you get plastic snakes when you clean.  In hot dry weather you get even more snakeskin.   In wet weather, the skin can be fragile enough that each following shot pulls out the fouling and plastic, so pards back east sometimes report they never get a plastic deposit. 

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

 

Well known situation.  All the BP and subs burn hot.  It fries the inside of plastic hulls.   It heats up barrels quickly.  Then the hot barrels melt plastic off the plastic wads as they travel down the barrel and deposit both melted plastic and powder fouling on the barrel walls.  Yes, you get plastic snakes when you clean.  In hot dry weather you get even more snakeskin.   In wet weather, the skin can be fragile enough that each following shot pulls out the fouling and plastic, so pards back east sometimes report they never get a plastic deposit. 

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

The heat is hard on crimps too.    It makes them brittle.  I only reload plastic hulls with a sub once and then toss them.  Since I mostly load Gun Clubs I get for free this practice costs me nothing.

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Posted (edited)

I use clay buster CB1138-12 wads,,,, 40.4 gr APP2f or3f and 1 1/8 oz. shot. if your using a MEC loader it is bushing #41 I also use an overshot card

Edited by Flinthills Dawg
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6 hours ago, Krazy Kajun said:

I've been shooting Triple 7 in SG for large matches for a few years now.  I use everything that you mentioned and a 1.9cc Lee dipper of Triple 7 FFg for 7/8 oz load.  I'll sometimes us a 1 1/8 oz load of shot and use the 2.2cc Lee dipper for that.  Of course use the correct wad size for the amount of shot that you use.

 

Kajun

I use the same 1.9 cc dipper load that Kajun listed in once fired AAs.

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I use 35-45 grains of APP or 777 to get a good load column for a proper crimp with whatever was that I have on hand.

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5 hours ago, Tequila Shooter said:

The other thing was the wads left melted plastic in the barrels, easy enough to clean out with a bore snake but you should've seen my face the first time I saw long pink plastic coming out.  

 

That will really gunk up a bore snake. Spray some hot water down the barrels (or moose milk), wait about 5 min & push 1/2 paper towel down each side. Try it once (at least)  :rolleyes:

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